Biodiesel

[Chris_Robb]

Whether this is green or not is an open question depending on palm oil levels, etc.

But is there a relevance to yacht auxiliary engines?

What about all the other pollutants in Bunker Oil? I thought that was one of the main problems - more so than CO2. As for burning these so called Green plant oil fuels: It creates huge environmental damage where its is grown, and takes away from food production - and just puts more CO2 back in the air! Oh - and provides politicians with the sound bites to show that they are doing something!:disgust:

 

[Refueler]

Refueller
It is not a sludge at all. I know what sludge looks like. The samples taken from the sump have NO noticeable sludge, and the liquid clears quickly to a clean diesel. The liquid is a black and waxy and heavier than the diesel.

History - I had a new tank made 4 years ago, and designed in a proper sump and large drain tap. I drain down the sump in spring into a 2 ltr plastic bottle, and again a few days after any refil (in case water is picked up in a refill). No sludge is present at any stage. I have never drawn any water off in 4 years, which back ups your point that the water is absorbed into the FAME, and leaves a dangerous finely divided water supply for the bug to grow. I add additive at each refill.

I can send you a sample which I have here at home. I have been trying to find someone who can test it for 2 years!

Easier to just google local Inspection Co ... such as BV Inspectorate or SGS or Intertek or any local Petrochemical Inspection Co. who has a lab. Be prepared for a hefty bill !! It would cost you more to me ... sorry but we don't do individual tests ... we are locked into batch contracts.

 

[Refueler]

One of the world’s largest shipping lines, MSC Mediterranean Shipping Company (MSC), has opted to begin using biofuel blends to power its fleet, becoming the first major ocean carrier to do so.
The decision by MSC follows successful trials with biofuel blends earlier this year. The trials were completed using a 10 percent blended bunker fuel. However, following further trials, the company will now use a much higher blend consisting 30 percent biofuel.
“We are pleased to see these trials completed successfully and look forward to now using biofuel on our vessels as a routine matter,” said Bud Darr, Executive Vice President, Maritime Policy & Government Affairs, MSC Group. “When using such blended fuel, we can expect an estimated 15-20% reduction in absolute CO2 emissions. The potential CO2 reduction in the bio component of these fuels could reach 80-90%, which we will monitor and confirm over time.”



https://gcaptain.com/msc-goes-green-with-biofuel-blend-to-power-its-fleet/

In fact 2020 legislation is the prompter for this ... shipping is required to lower its emmissions seriously in 2020 and is why we are heavily involved in the new guidelines and quality treatment of fuels in readiness for it. Hubs such as Singapore are investing heavily in changing over storage and transit tankage to accommodate.
Another avenue that is being developed is changing vessels to LPG ....

 

[Refueler]

Whether this is green or not is an open question depending on palm oil levels, etc.

But is there a relevance to yacht auxiliary engines?

One of the factors that has hit Bio Fuel production is the agricultural limitations on growing required volumes of source. It has - as was warned - to have hit staple food supplies of many areas where farmers have grown oil bearing crops for the money instead of food for population. This has been curtailed and farms have been put back to traditional crops - reducing the source.
It was even calculated way back in the early days of Bio debates that even if the world was put over to Bio production - it could not meet Green demands.

The facts speak for themselves - EU directives had Eu using higher % Bio fuels before now - but had to be suspended due to lack of material.
It also does not help also that long voyage supplies of Bio particuiarly FAME were often rejected due to high water content.

 

[dom]

Less than 5% is not declared .... so how do you know ? Even the distributor doesn't know .. he may tell you its zero - but thats because its not required to be stated when less than 5%.
Regular red in UK is around the 7% mark ....

Just to clarify, there is no such thing in the UK as 'regular red' . Vessels are perfectly free to use Road Diesel (EN 590), or Gas Oil / Red (EN 2869), where bio up to 7% is permissible but not mandatory, or even the high sulphur stuff which is required to be FAME free (ISO 8217).

Most vessels choose the middle Gas Oil option and owners can establish its exact composition by asking the supplier or refinery. In the UK Solent area, the majority supplier is Exxon which is happy to confirm details upon request.

 

[BabaYaga]

Third Bio usually in form of FAME is a required addition to ALL diesels road, yachtie, farmer ...

Red Diesel as supplied to Industrial / Agricultural and Marine Pleasure use is White Low Sulphur Diesel with Red Dye / Yellow Marker added. There is literally no diesel in UK / EU now that does not have Bio added .... its a stated requirement of EU grades - that includes UK.

All of Europe is using it without a problem so I think you're overreacting.

Diesel with zero percent FAME addition has been available and used by recreational boaters in this EU country for a number of years and still is (just checked the web site of Preem, one of the major fuel companies). It is also, in my experience, usually labeled as such at shore side pumps.
According to the web site, this FAME-free diesel quality, is mainly targeting the marine sector and reserve power applications with diesel generators (where fuel is stored for long periods).
It would surprise me a lot if this ongoing operation was in breach of EU law.

 

[Refueler]

Now people can see why many of my colleagues in Petrochemicals resist getting involved in these matters ... and why eventually after long term consultations stopped advising RYA and CA ... I now only answer specific direct questions from individuals of those organisations.

Its a minefield that very few outside of the 'real' industry understand or know the actual numbers. As I said before - I am constrained by Commercial Confidentiality.

You have my info ... take it or leave it ... not being sassy or rude .. everyone believes what they believe and I'm fine with that. Makes the world more interesting.

I will leave you all with one last titbit as example (don't ask why because I will not pass on Commercial data):

EU market E4 gasoline is out of spec in USA ... but ...... you wont find that online !!

 

[Refueler]

Diesel with zero percent FAME addition has been available and used by recreational boaters in this EU country for a number of years and still is (just checked the web site of Preem, one of the major fuel companies). It is also, in my experience, usually labeled as such at shore side pumps.
According to the web site, this FAME-free diesel quality, is mainly targeting the marine sector and reserve power applications with diesel generators (where fuel is stored for long periods).
It would surprise me a lot if this ongoing operation was in breach of EU law.

It may interest you that Preem was one of our clients for many years until I shut down ops in Latvia ... I'll leave it at that.

 

[dom]

One of the factors that has hit Bio Fuel production is the agricultural limitations on growing required volumes of source. It has - as was warned - to have hit staple food supplies of many areas where farmers have grown oil bearing crops for the money instead of food for population. This has been curtailed and farms have been put back to traditional crops - reducing the source.
It was even calculated way back in the early days of Bio debates that even if the world was put over to Bio production - it could not meet Green demands.

The facts speak for themselves - EU directives had Eu using higher % Bio fuels before now - but had to be suspended due to lack of material.
It also does not help also that long voyage supplies of Bio particuiarly FAME were often rejected due to high water content.

Palm oil is heavily used in biofuels and as well as screwing up staple supply chains, it is also a principal driver of environmental destruction across Southeast Asia and latterly in South America.

And the EU for its part was astonishingly complicit, before latterly trying to U-turn as quietly as it can.

This National Geographic article tells the sorry story:
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/...il-products-borneo-africa-environment-impact/

 

[BabaYaga]

It may interest you that Preem was one of our clients for many years until I shut down ops in Latvia ... I'll leave it at that.

It would be even more interesting if you please could back up your statement (as I understand it) that every grade of diesel sold in the EU must have a bio component, due to EU requirements.
Because, as has been suggested upthread, this requirement used to be calculated at company level.
The marketing of FAME-free diesel here suggests that this is still the case?

 

[Chris_Robb]

Easier to just google local Inspection Co ... such as BV Inspectorate or SGS or Intertek or any local Petrochemical Inspection Co. who has a lab. Be prepared for a hefty bill !! It would cost you more to me ... sorry but we don't do individual tests ... we are locked into batch contracts.

Yeah.... i have been that route, £500 squids was the cheapest! that's why the sample is still sitting on my desk!

 

[Mistroma]

"Mistroma"

Micro-organism contamination is only evident in a tank when the 'bugs' die. To test for LIVING 'bugs' requires lab petri's, special medium and controlled temp etc.

Dead bugs produce a sludge that is inert. Therefore the lack of 'growth' is not an indicator to use.

I've been in this business for many years ... and never seen or heard of asphaltene problems for the consumer ... basically because the amount that could ever 'drop out' is minute if any. Its a factor though for large storage terminal tanks when storage time is extended etc. Even then its rare.

BUT 'dead bugs' build up in storage tanks is far more common than terminals like to admit. My superintendents and I have seen many 'reputable' terminals tanks with serious amounts of dead bugs in the bottom ... not inches but feet deep ...

ALL middle distillate fuels have Micro Organism present unless specifically treated. Its an industry wide factor.

Thanks for the update, I had not considered that the bugs would be completely dead and thought there'd be sufficient resistant strains to grow in ideal conditions.

I don't get anything I would describe as sludge, more an oily residue. I might do a little more testing when I remove the next lot at the start of the season. My tank still has about 20 litres left in it since lift out and should have some residue after about 6 months storage. It would be interesting to find out if the residue is dead organisms or from diesel degradation.

 

[Old Harry]

Thanks for the update, I had not considered that the bugs would be completely dead and thought there'd be sufficient resistant strains to grow in ideal conditions.

I don't get anything I would describe as sludge, more an oily residue. I might do a little more testing when I remove the next lot at the start of the season. My tank still has about 20 litres left in it since lift out and should have some residue after about 6 months storage. It would be interesting to find out if the residue is dead organisms or from diesel degradation.

My infestation this year was akin to self amalgamating slugs.
The tank was last cleaned 14 yrs ago & we had a slight issue last year & more stoppages early this year,no blocked filters, just globs that temp blocked the stack pipe, when the engine stopped the slug fell away. I always use a biocide but still had the bug
I refilled with DERV

 

[Chris_Robb]

Thanks for the update, I had not considered that the bugs would be completely dead and thought there'd be sufficient resistant strains to grow in ideal conditions.

I don't get anything I would describe as sludge, more an oily residue. I might do a little more testing when I remove the next lot at the start of the season. My tank still has about 20 litres left in it since lift out and should have some residue after about 6 months storage. It would be interesting to find out if the residue is dead organisms or from diesel degradation.

Sounds like yours is the same stuff as mine -

 

[Refueler]

Thanks for the update, I had not considered that the bugs would be completely dead and thought there'd be sufficient resistant strains to grow in ideal conditions.

I don't get anything I would describe as sludge, more an oily residue. I might do a little more testing when I remove the next lot at the start of the season. My tank still has about 20 litres left in it since lift out and should have some residue after about 6 months storage. It would be interesting to find out if the residue is dead organisms or from diesel degradation.

Most dead bugs when between fingers is like a stodgy black porridge when first from the sample ... but if left to let the diesel separate ... it can be more solid.

In our work - we usually see it as blobs stuck on side of rods / tapes etc. after we sound the tanks ...

 

[dom]

Now people can see why many of my colleagues in Petrochemicals resist getting involved in these matters ... and why eventually after long term consultations stopped advising RYA and CA ... I now only answer specific direct questions from individuals of those organisations.

Its a minefield that very few outside of the 'real' industry understand or know the actual numbers. As I said before - I am constrained by Commercial Confidentiality.

You have my info ... take it or leave it ... not being sassy or rude .. everyone believes what they believe and I'm fine with that. Makes the world more interesting.

I will leave you all with one last titbit as example (don't ask why because I will not pass on Commercial data):

EU market E4 gasoline is out of spec in USA ... but ...... you wont find that online !!

Compliance issues will certainly exist, but the working assumption here is that UK FAME-free diesel is pretty much exactly as specified.

Unsupported claims of some giant conspiracy, which multiple insiders within oil co.s small and large alike somehow keep hush-hush are simply not credible. Anybody can send a fuel sample to a lab for FT-IR, NMR, or chromatographic testing. The MoD routinely does!

 

[Refueler]

Compliance issues will certainly exist, but the working assumption here is that UK FAME-free diesel is pretty much exactly as specified.

Unsupported claims of some giant conspiracy, which multiple insiders within oil co.s small and large alike somehow keep hush-hush are simply not credible. Anybody can send a fuel sample to a lab for FT-IR, NMR, or chromatographic testing. The MoD routinely does!

Ok ... I hear you ... but :

1. People are concentrating on FAME .. which is only part of the BioFuel spectrum. Just because some seller says its FAME free does not g'tee that - nor does it mean its not got Bio added.
You can go online in fact and check the less than 5% non declaration fact yourself. Why is that there ? a) because pipelines and tanks are not specially segregated due to the sheer costs involved - most clients volumes are comingled, leading to possibility of residual traces mixed in with next volumes, b) its difficult to determine accurately low concentrations in fact, c) less than 5% is not considered to be any risk or limit to use in any machinery or item.

2. Fuel is generally produced by limited number of companys then distributed out to 'dealers' - many of the 'household' names you know are actually not in any production at all ... they just buy from storage stock.
But Blending falls into another category and despite your skepticism - does actually constitute Confidentiality and serious level. There is good reason.

Lets take gasoline and diesel :

My company would blend up to clients specification. The ship would load .... anywhere from 20,000 to 60,000 tonnes. We could have been blending to FOD40 or UK BS specs ... what doesn't really matter. What mattered was the analysis result after blend and loading. The quality falls into a range of values for each test. If the results from lab are in the better quality level - destination could be changed and it goes to another market. If the quality falls into the lesser range - it could be changed to a less strict market.
Our blends went to : Anywhere in EU, Caribbean for Carib use or blend into USA market, West Africa just as examples. Each determined by the blend analysis results.

I sold of my Petrochem Lab in Riga a while back. Its not just quoting equipment ... to do what you imply - you would have to be sure of what you are looking for and specific on method ...

As regards MOD ... I work with MOD (Defstan) and US Defence ... having been involved In Strategic Fuel supplies in various regions and conflicts .... which again - I am restricted on.

I try to help ... but .. up to you lot.

 

[dom]

Ok ... I hear you ... but :

1. People are concentrating on FAME .. which is only part of the BioFuel spectrum. Just because some seller says its FAME free does not g'tee that - nor does it mean its not got Bio added.
You can go online in fact and check the less than 5% non declaration fact yourself. Why is that there ? a) because pipelines and tanks are not specially segregated due to the sheer costs involved - most clients volumes are comingled, leading to possibility of residual traces mixed in with next volumes, b) its difficult to determine accurately low concentrations in fact, c) less than 5% is not considered to be any risk or limit to use in any machinery or item.

2. Fuel is generally produced by limited number of companys then distributed out to 'dealers' - many of the 'household' names you know are actually not in any production at all ... they just buy from storage stock.
But Blending falls into another category and despite your skepticism - does actually constitute Confidentiality and serious level. There is good reason.

Lets take gasoline and diesel :

My company would blend up to clients specification. The ship would load .... anywhere from 20,000 to 60,000 tonnes. We could have been blending to FOD40 or UK BS specs ... what doesn't really matter. What mattered was the analysis result after blend and loading. The quality falls into a range of values for each test. If the results from lab are in the better quality level - destination could be changed and it goes to another market. If the quality falls into the lesser range - it could be changed to a less strict market.
Our blends went to : Anywhere in EU, Caribbean for Carib use or blend into USA market, West Africa just as examples. Each determined by the blend analysis results.

I sold of my Petrochem Lab in Riga a while back. Its not just quoting equipment ... to do what you imply - you would have to be sure of what you are looking for and specific on method ...

As regards MOD ... I work with MOD (Defstan) and US Defence ... having been involved In Strategic Fuel supplies in various regions and conflicts .... which again - I am restricted on.

I try to help ... but .. up to you lot.

Blending is of course standard practice which is why many yotties here, me included, ask for the provenance of the fuel. Many specify FAME free where possible, for the simple reason that it is available and generally requires less maintenance.

Most peeps are happy.

Re classified/restricted information; Unauthorized Disclosure rules are clear and public.

 

[Mistroma]

Most dead bugs when between fingers is like a stodgy black porridge when first from the sample ... but if left to let the diesel separate ... it can be more solid.

In our work - we usually see it as blobs stuck on side of rods / tapes etc. after we sound the tanks ...

Yes, that's what I'd expect with bug related residue, not at all like the stuff I see. I did get a tiny amount of growth many years ago, only about 20mls or so and that was easy to identify. Recent contamination has looked much more like degradation products. I don't work as a Chemist any more (I never worked at the refinery either but can see it from my window upstairs but that doesn't exactly qualify me on current petrochemical problems ).

Would you agree that Diesel has become less stable in storage since the days when cracking wasn't needed (long time ago) and has become worse with more recent changes?

 

[Refueler]

Would you agree that Diesel has become less stable in storage since the days when cracking wasn't needed (long time ago) and has become worse with more recent changes?

No actually ... unless you are talking about high % Bio additions. It is true that all fuels have changed over the years as blends become more prevalent. If you were to ask for Gasoline - then I would say yes - that is less tolerant of storage but again depends on the blend.