Biodiesel

[PaulRainbow]

READ MY POST ...

I stated clearly that Red Diesel is Low Sulphur Diesel with Red dye ... I stated clearly it is NOT Ultra Low Sulphur Diesel.

YOU are in MY territory now ... I work every day with the bl***y stuff ... thousands of tons of all grades ...

Why do you think RYA and Cruising Association used my advice and consultation when sulphur and Bio levels were changing ?

Not sure that all of the shouting and swearing adds any value to your posts.

I did take onboard your RYA comment and had a look to see what they had to say on the subject.

They seem to be under the impression that a fuel exists (often referred to as "marine diesel"), which contains no FAME and has a higher sulphur content than "normal" red diesel.

https://www.rya.org.uk/knowledge-advice/regulations/Pages/red-diesel.aspx

 

[Kurrawong_Kid]

The

Not sure that all of the shouting and swearing adds any value to your posts.

I did take onboard your RYA comment and had a look to see what they had to say on the subject.

They seem to be under the impression that a fuel exists (often referred to as "marine diesel"), which contains no FAME and has a higher sulphur content than "normal" red diesel.

https://www.rya.org.uk/knowledge-advice/regulations/Pages/red-diesel.aspx

I would take any advice from the RYA with a pinch of salt rather than sulphur! It would also have to be politically correct.

 

[Refueler]

Not sure that all of the shouting and swearing adds any value to your posts.

I did take onboard your RYA comment and had a look to see what they had to say on the subject.

They seem to be under the impression that a fuel exists (often referred to as "marine diesel"), which contains no FAME and has a higher sulphur content than "normal" red diesel.

https://www.rya.org.uk/knowledge-advice/regulations/Pages/red-diesel.aspx

I was a little annoyed that you failed to read what I had posted.

I stopped providing consultation to RYA a while back basically because the papers have been presented. What they do now or say is up to them.

 

[Refueler]

You clearly know what you're talking about, Refueler, but my understanding is otherwise, at least so far as the EU is concerned. My (last...maybe a year ago) understanding of the EU-mandated % of bio in fuels was expressed in terms of a supplying company's gross fuel products in the market. In other words, if they put x% more bio than the mandated level in some fuels, they could legitimately put less (or none) in others. You may know better, and can enlighten us.

As I said ... the EU directive was a staged increase in the % of Bio in ALL fuels ... but of main concern of course to us is Diesel.

If you look at the numbers you will see various % quoted for different countries even in EU. What actually happened is the staged levels were put back or just 'adjusted' .... This has come about because the world cannot in fact produce the Bio that is required to comply with all the requirements ! AND like most bureaucratic doctrines were written by 'idiots'.

The end result is a range of % seen via the pumps ... and now today there is only one gasoil that is stipulated to be 'minimalistically' free of FAME and that is DMX grade.... minimalistic means no more than 0.5% by volume. You will never see it anyway so its irrelevant to yachties.

The addition of Bio is not as simple as just % here and there ... the EU were just covering their *****.

 

[Refueler]

Does it mix if you shake the bottle, then settle out ?

Looks a bit like creosote, only blacker ?

If yes, it'll likely be asphaltenes.

Highly unlikely .... asphaltenes are controlled in fuels and dispersed. Usually you would only encounter them with high pressure / temp systems. A fuel tank unless subjected to unusual conditions would not deposit asphaltenes.

Micro Bacterial mass on the other hand in a warm country such as Greece, especially with a marina fuel station that may not have high throughput - standing fuel - is more likely.

The 'tests' you describe : shake and it settles out ... looks like creosote ... describes dead Bugs to a tee ....

Dead bugs if you see them ... colour can run from brown through to jet black. Consistency can be sticky like glue or slippery gel.

I am not saying its not asphaltenes - I would have to see it to be sure - but its highly unlikely.

 

[NormanS]

So what fuel am I buying? The company's biggest client is Calmac's ferries. They also supply large numbers of fishfarm workboats, fishing boats etc, and a very small number of yachts. Calmac apparently tried some fuel with a bio content, and were not happy with it, and the supplier reverted to non bio. I am also told by the supplier that his diesel is still (as of last month) high sulfur.

 

[sarabande]

Refueler, can you advise please, for yachties who use relatively little diesel over the year, and from small tanks which may only get refilled 2 or 3 times a year ?

Is it worth buying the 'best' premium quality diesel at 5 - 10 p/litre more expensive, to reduce the impact of biodiesel on storage problems and possible seal/pipe damage ?

And are there any additives, such as the Millers Oil diesel ones, which genuinely make the diesel performance and 'stability ' better ?

Finally, is there anyone who supplies non-FAME/diesel ? I am thinking about emergency standby generators for critical operations for e.g. banks, manufacturing, which often have very large tanks in case of protracted mains failure. ?

TIA

 

[Refueler]

Refueler, can you advise please, for yachties who use relatively little diesel over the year, and from small tanks which may only get refilled 2 or 3 times a year ?

Is it worth buying the 'best' premium quality diesel at 5 - 10 p/litre more expensive, to reduce the impact of biodiesel on storage problems and possible seal/pipe damage ?

And are there any additives, such as the Millers Oil diesel ones, which genuinely make the diesel performance and 'stability ' better ?

Finally, is there anyone who supplies non-FAME/diesel ? I am thinking about emergency standby generators for critical operations for e.g. banks, manufacturing, which often have very large tanks in case of protracted mains failure. ?

TIA

There is no legal reqt for any declaration of under 5% bio in diesel. Crazy but true.

Why pay more for ULSD instead of Red ? And you may actually have more Bio in ULSD than Red. Most Red and ULSD is 7% ... but there are exceptions ... B8 ... B10 ... B11 ... B20 etc.

Honestly - you'd be hard pushed to find non bio diesel now. Did you know that Bio is being cleared in Jet Fuel ? It has been tested by USAF and a number of Airlines ... that Gasoline is also bio'd ... its not just Diesel.

I think a level of paranoia may be creeping in and articles like the Scottish Farmers doesn't help.

 

[zambant]

I would NEVER put biodiesel in my boat unless I knew I could use it all within a couple of months and then refill with FAME free ..... I dont think its worth the risk. Only time I have to is when in France. When I get back I run it out of the tank asap. I always use an additive.....
just sharing
Fair winds

 

[Refueler]

So what fuel am I buying? The company's biggest client is Calmac's ferries. They also supply large numbers of fishfarm workboats, fishing boats etc, and a very small number of yachts. Calmac apparently tried some fuel with a bio content, and were not happy with it, and the supplier reverted to non bio. I am also told by the supplier that his diesel is still (as of last month) high sulfur.

Less than 5% Bio does not have to be declared - so in effect distributor would not know if its in or not.
Second Marine Diesel Oil (MDO) and Red is higher Sulphur than Road Diesel. But they are not same. If yachts are using same as commercial ferry - then yacht may be using lower cetane gasoil.

Without actually knowing the size and actual ferrys etc. - they could be using a regular Red instead of MDO ... which on the small harbour ferrys is common. It would be reasonable to assume the workboats and rest are all using regular red. It would be unusual to use Shipping spec MDO.

 

[Refueler]

I would NEVER put biodiesel in my boat unless I knew I could use it all within a couple of months and then refill with FAME free ..... I dont think its worth the risk. Only time I have to is when in France. When I get back I run it out of the tank asap. I always use an additive.....
just sharing
Fair winds

Less than 5% is not declared .... so how do you know ? Even the distributor doesn't know .. he may tell you its zero - but thats because its not required to be stated when less than 5%.
Regular red in UK is around the 7% mark ....

 

[dom]

I did take onboard your RYA comment and had a look to see what they had to say on the subject.

They seem to be under the impression that a fuel exists (often referred to as "marine diesel"), which contains no FAME and has a higher sulphur content than "normal" red diesel.

With respect to FAME free, you’re right. It’s really that simple.

 

[Mistroma]

Highly unlikely .... asphaltenes are controlled in fuels and dispersed. Usually you would only encounter them with high pressure / temp systems. A fuel tank unless subjected to unusual conditions would not deposit asphaltenes.

Micro Bacterial mass on the other hand in a warm country such as Greece, especially with a marina fuel station that may not have high throughput - standing fuel - is more likely.

The 'tests' you describe : shake and it settles out ... looks like creosote ... describes dead Bugs to a tee ....

Dead bugs if you see them ... colour can run from brown through to jet black. Consistency can be sticky like glue or slippery gel.

I am not saying its not asphaltenes - I would have to see it to be sure - but its highly unlikely.

Interesting, I've commented on asphaltenes (perhaps on another forum). I decided to keep my tank close to empty over winter because I decided that degradation products were now more of a risk than moisture ingress from tank expansion and contraction. I do make certain that the filler is sealed over winter to prevent water coming from that route.

I have noticed a steady increase in residue in the tank when I check at the start of each season. It used to be a few mls., probably microbial, but grew to a couple of litres of cloudy fuel. The contamination I see looks more like asphaltenes (asphaltines) than microbial growth. I know that many people do confuse the two types of contamination.

I am not seeing microbial growth in Greece but do see what looks like asphaltines. I double dose the tank with Marine16 at start and end of each season.

The tank does get very hot in use as ambient temperatures are high in summer and a lot of hot fuel is re-cycled from the engine. It makes sense that the return of hot fuel from a pressurised environment will promote polymerization and fuel breakdown.

I wouldn't say that the problem is specifically due to asphaltines as there are plenty of other degradation products produced when diesel is heated and stored for long periods. It isn't my area of expertise and I do know that asphaltines are often referred to as colloidal. I also know that they have a higher density than diesel and are polar which would make me expect them to have an affinity for water.

Looks like creosote and settles out sounds very much like ashphaltines and other degradation products. The residue I see in my tank does not appear to be microbial in nature. It doesn't grow when kept for many months and forms a cloudy liqud when shaken. It settles reasonably quickly over a day or so but does not increase in volume over time, even if some water is introduced.

I finally decided that Marine16 was working and the contamination in my tank was not microbial. Hence my decision to avoid storing a full tank over winter. The contamination isn't a big issue for me as I pump it out twice a year and only get about 5mls of residue after letting the cloudy fuel settle.

 

[Graham376]

I would NEVER put biodiesel in my boat unless I knew I could use it all within a couple of months and then refill with FAME free ..... I dont think its worth the risk. Only time I have to is when in France. When I get back I run it out of the tank asap. I always use an additive.....
just sharing. Fair winds

All of Europe is using it without a problem so I think you're overreacting. Some of my tank contents will be up to 3 years old and on checking the tank, there's no sign of water or sludge. I do add Fuel Set to spare cans and tank when filling.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Red Diesel as supplied to Industrial / Agricultural and Marine Pleasure use is White Low Sulphur Diesel with Red Dye / Yellow Marker added. There is literally no diesel in UK / EU now that does not have Bio added .... its a stated requirement of EU grades - that includes UK.

Is that a recent change? I am pretty sure that when I last bought diesel fuel at Largs marina it was guaranteed free from bio-diesel.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Why do you think RYA and Cruising Association used my advice and consultation when sulphur and Bio levels were changing ?

Current RYA statement (https://www.rya.org.uk/knowledge-advice/regulations/Pages/red-diesel.aspx):

 

[Refueler]

"Mistroma"

Micro-organism contamination is only evident in a tank when the 'bugs' die. To test for LIVING 'bugs' requires lab petri's, special medium and controlled temp etc.

Dead bugs produce a sludge that is inert. Therefore the lack of 'growth' is not an indicator to use.

I've been in this business for many years ... and never seen or heard of asphaltene problems for the consumer ... basically because the amount that could ever 'drop out' is minute if any. Its a factor though for large storage terminal tanks when storage time is extended etc. Even then its rare.

BUT 'dead bugs' build up in storage tanks is far more common than terminals like to admit. My superintendents and I have seen many 'reputable' terminals tanks with serious amounts of dead bugs in the bottom ... not inches but feet deep ...

ALL middle distillate fuels have Micro Organism present unless specifically treated. Its an industry wide factor.

 

[Old Harry]

One of the world’s largest shipping lines, MSC Mediterranean Shipping Company (MSC), has opted to begin using biofuel blends to power its fleet, becoming the first major ocean carrier to do so.
The decision by MSC follows successful trials with biofuel blends earlier this year. The trials were completed using a 10 percent blended bunker fuel. However, following further trials, the company will now use a much higher blend consisting 30 percent biofuel.
“We are pleased to see these trials completed successfully and look forward to now using biofuel on our vessels as a routine matter,” said Bud Darr, Executive Vice President, Maritime Policy & Government Affairs, MSC Group. “When using such blended fuel, we can expect an estimated 15-20% reduction in absolute CO2 emissions. The potential CO2 reduction in the bio component of these fuels could reach 80-90%, which we will monitor and confirm over time.”



https://gcaptain.com/msc-goes-green-with-biofuel-blend-to-power-its-fleet/

 

[dom]

One of the world’s largest shipping lines, MSC Mediterranean Shipping Company (MSC), has opted to begin using biofuel blends to power its fleet, becoming the first major ocean carrier to do so.
The decision by MSC follows successful trials with biofuel blends earlier this year. The trials were completed using a 10 percent blended bunker fuel. However, following further trials, the company will now use a much higher blend consisting 30 percent biofuel.
“We are pleased to see these trials completed successfully and look forward to now using biofuel on our vessels as a routine matter,” said Bud Darr, Executive Vice President, Maritime Policy & Government Affairs, MSC Group. “When using such blended fuel, we can expect an estimated 15-20% reduction in absolute CO2 emissions. The potential CO2 reduction in the bio component of these fuels could reach 80-90%, which we will monitor and confirm over time.”



https://gcaptain.com/msc-goes-green-with-biofuel-blend-to-power-its-fleet/

Whether this is green or not is an open question depending on palm oil levels, etc.

But is there a relevance to yacht auxiliary engines?

 

[Chris_Robb]

I would suggest you have a Bugs problem ..... you may have parafins settling from the fuel but I doubt it being Greece and its ambient temps. It should never reach low enough temp.

One of the problems of Bio is the moisture part. You all know about Bugs in Diesel and use of killer additives such as Soltron .. Startron etc. Its micro-organisms that live in the boundary and high moisture layers of the diesel. There are others SRB's - Sulphur Reducing Bacteria that live in the rest of the diesel. Basically you cannot now control the moisture content of your fuel by draining of water etc as you used to be able to do.
They all die and you get a dark brown to black sludge collects in the tank. If this passes into the fuel lines - it will clog your filters faster than a rabbit gets ***** !

Enzyme based additives like Startron etc. are good to break this down and it can pass through and be burnt in the engine.

I actually use the Enzyme Additive myself as a regular squirt into my tank. Despite my commercial knowledge of all this - I suffered badly one cruise in Swedish Islands ... every few days I had to change filter when it clogged. Engine would start slowing and then hunting from fuel starvation.
Now 8 years later and that squirt of Enzyme at start of season and an odd squirt during the year - never had a problem again.

I suggest you do your syphon out ... add Enzyme to the fuel and let it break up whatever is left in there ... it will also kill whats still 'floating around'.

Disclaimer : I can only go by what description given - which indicates Micro Organism contamination of the fuel. I cannot be held responsible without actually sighting the item directly.

Refueller
It is not a sludge at all. I know what sludge looks like. The samples taken from the sump have NO noticeable sludge, and the liquid clears quickly to a clean diesel. The liquid is a black and waxy and heavier than the diesel.

History - I had a new tank made 4 years ago, and designed in a proper sump and large drain tap. I drain down the sump in spring into a 2 ltr plastic bottle, and again a few days after any refil (in case water is picked up in a refill). No sludge is present at any stage. I have never drawn any water off in 4 years, which back ups your point that the water is absorbed into the FAME, and leaves a dangerous finely divided water supply for the bug to grow. I add additive at each refill.

I can send you a sample which I have here at home. I have been trying to find someone who can test it for 2 years!