Bilge pumps - how many ?

[ghostlymoron]

Of the suggestions so far, the frightened man with a bucket needs to be a very fit man - have you ever tried filling a bucket, lifting it up and emptying through the companionway for any length of time ?
Likewise anything requiring alterations to plumbing are impractical, the time spent rigging them up is better spent finding the leak and stuffing a pillow in it. Otherwise you'll be up to your neck by the time it's pumping.
Personally I use the biggest submersible I can fit and a manual bilge pump to use when there's additional crew available.

 

[anoccasionalyachtsman]

Be really careful with that. Friend did the same and created a Syphon. We went to the pub and when we got back the water was above the cabin sole. No automatic bilge pump, no alarm. Lucky not to lose the boat

Ah, yes, that could backfire. My washbasin outlets have all been above the waterline!

 

[geem]

Ah, yes, that could backfire. My washbasin outlets have all been above the waterline!

So was his. He used the wash hand basin then drained it. Put the plug back in. That left the pipework full and set off a Syphon effect. It didn't matter that the whb was above the water line.

 

[anoccasionalyachtsman]

So was his. He used the wash hand basin then drained it. Put the plug back in. That left the pipework full and set off a Syphon effect. It didn't matter that the whb was above the water line.

By outlet I mean skin fitting.

 

[Neeves]

We have two Lavac loos. If we needed a manual bilge pump we can remove the suction end from the loo and use those. The pumps are Henderson Mk5 high capacity bilge pumps. They are there but I can't imagine a scenario where doing this would be useful. We generally sail with just two of us. We would rather leave electric pumps doing the work whilst we find and deal with the leak. Our main emergency pump is a Rule 3700gph, with a 1.5" hose, on a float switch under the saloon floor. This is higher than the main sump bilge pump, a 2000gph Rule pump.
I would be nervous running the engine cooling water hose into the bilges as a pump due to the risk of blockage from the debris that could be pulled in to the pump. Sinking plus no engine and no way of charging my batteries would be a concern

Our bilges are gel coat white and, kept, spotless - debris would be the least of our concerns.

Our procedures are based on the idea that a catastrophic holing would need to involve ripping a huge section of the hull away - in which case its the EPIRB. If we hole one hull all the rest of sealed chambers would keep the catamaran afloat. The engine is the fall back when both bilge pumps have failed. If one sealed chamber is holed we can sail - if slightly soggy. Our batteries and electrics are above the calculated new waterline when we lose one sealed chamber. We know where each hull fitting is located and have appropriate bungs tied to each fitting - it would take a few minutes to scan through the hulls to find one that was leaking, and less time to hammer in a bung.

Mono hulls have different issues as they have the weight of the keel exacerbating any problems and time is of the essence. Few mono-hulls have sufficient sealed chambers to keep the yacht afloat if there is a catastrophic leak. Many older yachts have filthy bilges - its really is not difficult to keep bilges clean and debris blocking a bilge pump, whether a dedicated electric pump or the engine will both potentially suffer from blockages.

Instead of worrying about numbers of bilge pumps I'd focus at the outset in equipping the yacht with bungs that fit and cleaning the bilges. Id worry that the fuses/cuircit breaker/ master switch , batteriesare too low and likely to be flooded (and this fail). Whereas planning for such a contingency is very sensible the focus is in the wrong are. Most yachts are equipped with electric bilge pumps - but whether they will work for hours, whether the electrics are arranged suitably etc etc are significant issues - and to me these less obvious problems are more important than an extra bilge pump.

If you are sailing as a crew of 6 then the bucket and manual bilge pump would be useful - for a crew of 2 - a waste of time.

From memory, say over the last 10 years, and to put the question into context (or proportion) - loss of mast, or keel seems a more likely accident than holing a hull (and as most hull 'holes' will be hull fittings - these are easily rectified - and then all you need is a towel to dry out the cabin sole.

Jonathan

 

[Neeves]

On our X-99 it took some time to work it out but the head, located slightly forward of the mast on starboard side would syphon water into the hull. The answer was simply - turn off, close, the hull fittings for the toilet. For local races this never manifested itself and only occurred in big seas in ocean races (which is why it took time to work out what was happening).

Jonathan

 

[anoccasionalyachtsman]

On our X-99 it took some time to work it out but the head, located slightly forward of the mast on starboard side would syphon water into the hull. The answer was simply - turn off, close, the hull fittings for the toilet. For local races this never manifested itself and only occurred in big seas in ocean races (which is why it took time to work out what was happening).

Jonathan

The X-402 did it as well...

 

[lustyd]

The engine is the fall back when both bilge pumps have failed

Probably take a look at sailing into freedom on YouTube when his cat had both rudders and engines pushed up into the Hull, all in sealed sections. Quite frightening to watch and he eventually abandoned and lost the boat. Useful to observe though

 

[STOL71]

The smaller the boat the bigger capacity the bilge pump(s).

 

[geem]

Our bilges are gel coat white and, kept, spotless - debris would be the least of our concerns.

Our procedures are based on the idea that a catastrophic holing would need to involve ripping a huge section of the hull away - in which case its the EPIRB. If we hole one hull all the rest of sealed chambers would keep the catamaran afloat. The engine is the fall back when both bilge pumps have failed. If one sealed chamber is holed we can sail - if slightly soggy. Our batteries and electrics are above the calculated new waterline when we lose one sealed chamber. We know where each hull fitting is located and have appropriate bungs tied to each fitting - it would take a few minutes to scan through the hulls to find one that was leaking, and less time to hammer in a bung.

Mono hulls have different issues as they have the weight of the keel exacerbating any problems and time is of the essence. Few mono-hulls have sufficient sealed chambers to keep the yacht afloat if there is a catastrophic leak. Many older yachts have filthy bilges - its really is not difficult to keep bilges clean and debris blocking a bilge pump, whether a dedicated electric pump or the engine will both potentially suffer from blockages.

Instead of worrying about numbers of bilge pumps I'd focus at the outset in equipping the yacht with bungs that fit and cleaning the bilges. Id worry that the fuses/cuircit breaker/ master switch , batteriesare too low and likely to be flooded (and this fail). Whereas planning for such a contingency is very sensible the focus is in the wrong are. Most yachts are equipped with electric bilge pumps - but whether they will work for hours, whether the electrics are arranged suitably etc etc are significant issues - and to me these less obvious problems are more important than an extra bilge pump.

If you are sailing as a crew of 6 then the bucket and manual bilge pump would be useful - for a crew of 2 - a waste of time.

From memory, say over the last 10 years, and to put the question into context (or proportion) - loss of mast, or keel seems a more likely accident than holing a hull (and as most hull 'holes' will be hull fittings - these are easily rectified - and then all you need is a towel to dry out the cabin sole.

Jonathan

Our bilges are huge. They are used for storage. It's not the fact that they are dirty or dusty it the fact that the bilge in the galley is full of tins. It's separate to the main bilge. The bilge in the aft cabin has all my BBQ gear below. Bag of charcoal, bottles of vino, etc. It's also isolated. The forward bilge has our hookah, rain collection pipework, filter etc. It's also isolated. If the floorboards float in a holing of the hull then anything we have stored such as tins with paper labels potentially will cause debris that may block an engine inlet pipe. I think a two way valve on the engine inlet with a strum box where the engine would pick up from in the bilge would be a good idea. Our Perkins 86hp has a 1.5" seawater inlet moving a serious amount of water.
I understand about Catamaran s Vs monohulls. Our previous boat was a cat. It had 11 sealed compartments. It would have stayed afloat in a holing of one hull. We didn't have a fixed bilge pump as there was no bilges. We had a stirrup pump and a portable electric pump only. The difference between our old cat and the current mono is the volume of our bilges is massive. It's really a below floor locker. We have also got an 800l water tank, 500litre fuel tank and 125 litre holding tank in there?

 

[fredrussell]

If the leak is sufficient - close the water intake for your engine, direct water intake to leak (having planned for this you will have the pipe work) start engine.

Would that not only work with a very small/slow leak? I’m basing that question on the rate at which water exits my boats exhaust fitting on transom. It doesn’t exactly gush out of there.

 

[Iliade]

Depends on the engine/pump. Mine throws water out of the back at about three times the rate of the 1" electric bilge pump.

 

[RAI]

Just a wee point about automatic electric bilge pumps. They often use float switches. The electrics of which are extremely vulnerable to failure, being often under bilge water.
Been there, got a wet t-shirt.
So I use two above waterline air pressure switches for greater reliability.

 

[Stemar]

They often use float switches. The electrics of which are extremely vulnerable to failure, being often under bilge water.

It's something I was a bit leery of when I set up Jissel, but the alternatives were either expensive or seemed to me to be unnecessarily complex, so I went with a float switch. It failed eventually, but only after 15 or more years, which I don't reckon was bad. I've no evidence to back this up, but I suspect that more pumps and switches die in dusty bilges from never being used than from water getting to them. My engine pump got regular use from a stern gland that leaked a bit more than it should, but not enough to get me to fix it, and lasted well. The one under the cabin sole, which never got any water eventually died of boredom

 

[Plum]

So I use two above waterline air pressure switches for greater reliability.

Agree. I use the plastic cased air pressure switches made for washing machines connected to a length of 13mm hose so the switch is 500mm above the bilge.

Www.solocoastalsailing.co.uk

 

[Daydream believer]

The best manual bilge pump is a bucket and I'm sure he has one. ?

But you cannot sail the boat, or look for the cause of the leak, & bail at the same time, if sailing single handed.

I do recall a report of a fishing charter boat, that suffered a bad leak on charter. The report praised the skipper for having a valve that diverted the engine cooling water intake from its normal inlet to the bilges. I would consider it a good idea to get a diesel engine started early, before the electrics failed anyway. Once started, a typical yacht diesel does not need electric to run. It can also be supplying power to the batteries, thus assisting power to electric pumps to avoid flat batteries. That assumes one can keep the water level low enough to prevent them shorting out, of course.
Having the engine running allows one to drop the sails & keep the boat level for a while, which may assist the stability of the boat, once things get really bad.

 

[Daydream believer]

I guess shower pumps could come into play once the water is above sole boards? Or has anyone fit a diverter valve to allow the shower pump to draw from a hose/strainer in the actual bilges?

I have a hoselock fitting in my shower hose. This allows me to disconnect the pump from thr shower & connect a 10ft length of hose. On the end of the hose I can fit a 7mm diam * 12 inch length of copper pipe. I can poke this through a hole in the cockpit floor & suck virtually every drop of water from the bilge. I also use it as a floating "hoover" to clear up water under the engine, or areas in the bilges, that do not reach the main cockpit .
My shower does not drain the tray fully ( Hanse puts the outlet at the high end ) so I can hoover up the resulting puddle after a shower.
In emergency I can pull the copper pipe out & I have a 15mm hose that can be diverted anywhere within reach.
The pump is a whale gulper with plenty of reserve lift. I leave the hose attached most of the time & just lay it in the shower tray when showering.

 

[roaringgirl]

One electric whale pump with intake at bottom of keel; one manual pump in stern cabin with intake in bottom of keel; one manual pump in cockpit with intake at bottom of keel; T-valve in engine water intake, with intake at bottom of keel - if I close the engine intake seacock and throw the T-valve over, the engine becomes a diesel-powered bilge pump. I'm genuinely surprised that no-one else has mentioned this option.

 

[PilotWolf]

One electric whale pump with intake at bottom of keel; one manual pump in stern cabin with intake in bottom of keel; one manual pump in cockpit with intake at bottom of keel; T-valve in engine water intake, with intake at bottom of keel - if I close the engine intake seacock and throw the T-valve over, the engine becomes a diesel-powered bilge pump. I'm genuinely surprised that no-one else has mentioned this option.

The risk is in a panic situation the engine will run dry and overheat.

W.

 

[Arcady]

Not mentioned so far (but discussed elsewhere on this forum) is the option of a permanently mounted centrifugal pump on the prop shaft. This would shift a serious amount of water once submerged. I don’t imagine they are cheap and you need the necessary space between engine and stern tube.