Bilge Keelers in Club Racing

[lw395]

A mate of mine is considering buying a bilge keeler. He has the possibility of a cheap and convenient mooring which dries.
He's sailed with me a few times and wants a reasonably responsive boat that goes upwind OK.
So, the question is, other than Jo Richards' latest, what bilge keelers punch above their weight in club races? How big is the disadvantage compared to a typical fin keel?

I've only sailed a couple of bilge keelers. Hunter Duette 23 and a horrid Centaur. The Duette was a very, very long time ago and my impression was that it went OK. The Centaur was just a slow boat owned by someone who was never in a hurry and was always happy to fire up the diesel, so possibly not a fair judgement of the type.
I think he'd be looking at 26 to 33ft? Not sure of budget.
So who's raced a bilge keeler and how did it go?
Who will admit to being beaten by one?
Anyone able to get any sense from the yardstick scheme?

I think any racing will be incidental, we were just wondering about racing as an indicator of all-round 'perfromance'.

 

[savageseadog]

Seawolf 26 and 30 reputedly sailed well as bilge keelers

 

[matt1]

Hunter Channel 31 is Very Very quick and a highly impressive performer. Mine (sadly now sold) wouldn't point as high as a fin, BUT made significantly less leeway and would run rings round much bigger fin keel boats. Fulmar 32 also a good performer. Moody S31 probably good too.

 

[dunedin]

Hunter Channel 31 is Very Very quick and a highly impressive performer. Mine (sadly now sold) wouldn't point as high as a fin, BUT made significantly less leeway and would run rings round much bigger fin keel boats. Fulmar 32 also a good performer. Moody S31 probably good too.

Good advice, spot on ......... unless much larger budget to get an RM.

 

[lw395]

Thanks for replies.
Much more research to do I think.
My club mate needs to reduce his fleet of dinghies, might be looking to buy next year.
Seawold looks fairly tidy for £10k.

 

[Praxinoscope]

My Sadler 25 bilge keeler still manages to compete, but to be fair most of the competition in our are is bilge, but she competes well against Fulmars, Sadler 29’s Achilles 24’s and has been known to do well against the Super Seals.
The Centaur might be a fair cruiser and tough a£ old boots, but a potential racer it certainly isn’t.

 

[jwilson]

As others have said, Sadlers, British Hunters are the main good-performing twin-keelers. Apart from much newer and more expensive RMs and Sadler 290s, both of which show that a twin-keeler can be a pretty fast boat.

The stodgier the boat the more skill is needed to get it to sail well: for instance Centaurs have a reputation as sluggish but it's quite undeserved: there are just too many owners of them that don't know how to get the best from them. Despite this I wouldn't want to race one against similar sized Hunters or Sadlers 25/26.

The trouble with low level club racing is that in each club there often are only a few good helms, and that skews the handicap results enormously. A previous poster reports a Sadler 25 doing well against Super Seals: well the Sadler 25 is a very fine twin-keeler, but a Super Seal should be quite a lot faster.

 

[Praxinoscope]

Ref #7, agreed a S/Seal is faster than a bilge Sadler 25, but speed is not always the only factor in a win, mis-judge the tidal flow a bit, or lose the wind when the boat 2 cables out to sea has plenty, taking the in-shore rather than off-shore course or a simple error in navigation can change the whole outcome of a race and often does.
I still ‘smart’ over the year when on one of our longer races (22nm) was won by a Seawych beating the rest of the field.
To throw some more controversy in, I also think that the Sadler 25 is a faster boat than the Sadler 26.

 

[northwind]

Bilge keeler won the round the island this year

 

[lw395]

Bilge keeler won the round the island this year

I was aware of that.
I can't see that as being ideal to leaving on a mooring drying to sand, looks like it would either nosedive or siit on that dainty rudder. I bet the interior is a bit small and basic even for a weekend 'camping afloat'?

I do love the high gloss bottom and the bowsprit though!

 

[Seashoreman]

Bilge keeler won the round the island this year

I am amazed this boat is so light the guy is holding up in the air with one hand?

 

[Judders]

Bilge keeler won the round the island this year

Obviously if the OP's mate can attract an olympic helmsman that will certainly assist.

 

[lw395]

Obviously if the OP's mate can attract an olympic helmsman that will certainly assist.

Actually that's not completely out of the question!

But the question was really to discuss boats which are responsive and fun to sail and might get from A to B in a reasonable time.
I think actual racing will be minimal.
I just thought people might have some insight into bilge keelers that go better than one might expect?

 

[markhomer]

I was aware of that.
I can't see that as being ideal to leaving on a mooring drying to sand, looks like it would either nosedive or siit on that dainty rudder. I bet the interior is a bit small and basic even for a weekend 'camping afloat'?

I do love the high gloss bottom and the bowsprit though!

it was built to win and it did , a LOT of very detailed clever thought went into this boat which bears little relationship to its former self .

if you have the loot a rm 970 would cause a stir on the racecourse and give you somewhere to sleep

 

[anoccasionalyachtsman]

I hear that the owner had to hop over and stand on a keel to get it back up after a 'moment' during Cowes Week. Less far to walk than with a single fin though.

 

[Daydream believer]

if you have the loot a rm 970 would cause a stir on the racecourse and give you somewhere to sleep

Just get the race officer to put plenty of windward legs into the course & it would come nowhere boat for boat. Let alone on rating.

 

[lw395]

Just get the race officer to put plenty of windward legs into the course & it would come nowhere boat for boat. Let alone on rating.

Against what?

 

[Daydream believer]

Against what?

I think that the RM's are great yachts, so I have watched lots of videos. In one, the reviewer of the 1070 (& I expect that the 970 would be no better) said that although the down wind performance was good, he said that its upwind was mediocre. He then pointed to a Hanse 311 ( I have one & that is why it stuck in my memory) had passed it upwind with ease, pointing higher & going faster.
the reviewer still only classed the RM as a "cruising" boat.

Obviously that was only one opinion, but the fact remains that a factory boat on demonstration was being passed by another cruising boat, that was (presumably) being casually sailed. One only has to look at the 3 keel configurations to wonder if they are really conducive to good upwind performance, on that hull. You do not see many videos of them going upwind in a southern north sea style F6 chop
So if you ask "against what" then I suggest something like a modern Dehler 30 OD --or even my own Hanse 311 in race trim:encouragement:

 

[seumask]

Second the Westerly Fulmar. Although ours is not raced much it does often keep up with the fin keels it races against. That said I don't relish a long beat to windward in light airs but as soon as there is 8-10 knts of wind it goes very well. All other points of sail its not noticeable that it's a bilge keel version.

 

[CAPTAIN FANTASTIC]

I am aware that the Moody S31, and Moody 33S bilge keel are reasonably fast and can sail close to windward. The bilge keeler Fulmar with the fractional rig is very good to windward too. Off the wind, I doubt if there are any differences between bilge and fin. Bilge keelers need a very good condition genoa to ensure efficient sail to windward.