Bilge Keel vs Fin Keel - Moody 346

[Geofish]

Hi, I'm looking for anyone who has hands-on experience sailing a Moody 346, be it the bilge keel or fin keel variant.
My primary concern revolves around the comparison of sailing performance between these two models. I understand the inherent advantages of bilge keels for cruising around the UK coastline, particularly their convenience for beaching and navigating shallow waters.
However, my long-term plans extend beyond coastal cruising. I have aspirations to embark on longer voyages, and I'm slightly apprehensive about potentially sacrificing too much sailing performance by opting for the bilge keel.
I'd greatly appreciate any insights or experiences you might be able to share about the Moody 346. Are there any noticeable performance trade-offs with the bilge keel when venturing further afield? Is the fin keel variant significantly superior in performance in open water conditions?
Thanks!

 

[jwilson]

I have only sailed a bilge keel 346. It sailed pretty well: my only adverse handling comment was that the helm had little "feel", and you had to concentrate more going to windward than with a boat that had "feel" to keep it "in the groove". The bilge keels are fairly deep and I doubt there's that much practical loss of cruising performance over a fin keel version. You don't aim to cruise to windward that often! The other point is similar to most centre cockpit boats: harder work to see under the genoa.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Over my ownership i had quite a few moody , 336, 30, 36 and 42 all fins and they sail pretty well Althought the 40 and 42 needed some wind to get them to sail fast .
I not sailed a bilge keel Moody but I did owner a Jag bilge keel 35 years ago plus and I didn’t at the time realised had bad it sailed to wind ward till I sailed a fin keel .
as for sitting a bilge keel on the ground , my experience was that one keel always found a soft spot or a hole .
personally if you plans is to cruise then I would go for a fin keel .
as for no plan to sail towind wards , I can assure you that won’t be the case .

 

[ashtead]

In case the OP is not aware it might be that the Moody owners assoc has articles from historic publications on point . I would have thought it might also turn on your area and what’s local to you and harbours to tend to visit . Personally I would be more focussed on the quality of the engine on any Old Moody as opposed to the keels however bilge keels will give more berthing options hence being able to take cheap river moorings where fin keels might rest aground. Just be aware though that constant drying out on a mooring of a classic yacht might not have done the bilge keels favours -I don’t know if splayed bilge keels are an issue on a Moody but a fin wouldn’t present this worry. You will learn to sail with a bilge keel though and go with tide more but it might be wetter with tide against wind if tacking. You might however be able to leave later to enter your chosen destination on a falling tide if feeling lucky.

 

[Praxinoscope]

Following on to Ashteds' comment #4, the choice of bilge or fin can to a large extent b governed on your main sailing area, I sailed a single long keel boat in the Cardigan Bay area for several years, but now sail a bilge keeler, true the single keel could point slightly better but as the majority of our harbours are drying it was restrictive for the a single keel to access many of the drying harbours.
Changing to to a bilge keel has opened up the number of harbours etc. that I can access, and the slight loss of windward performance is more than made up for by the additional harbour access.
However if your sailing area has plenty of deep water mooring grounds, plenty of marinas to visit and few that dry completely then a fin may be the better choice.

 

[MoodySabre]

i have a Moody 31. One weekend we sailed to Ostend in my friends bilgekeeler. The next weekend I sailed there in my fin keel. The two differences were:
noise - the bilgy in a cross swell trapped air under the windward keel that made quite a noise but the fin keel doesnt do that
tracking - the fin was much better at holding a course and pointing.

 

[Daydream believer]

A friend of mine ran aground in the lower sunkcrossing. A 45 ft Ketch's AIS showed MOB. So he went to its aid, not knowing it was actually aground. My friend did not realise that it was shallow. The yacht had a faulty VHF & was putting out sketchy maydays via another yacht nearby, also aground. The gear on the yacht made it look like people looking over the stern.

When my friend hit the bottom, he suddenly realised he was in breaking surf. I was in the main channel & was trying to warn him but he was not listening on his own VHF .
His 28 ft Leisure tripped over the bilge keel & went flat with the mast horizontal. How they never got thrown into the water is a miracle.The bilge keels prevented the boat coming to anything like upright. The waves pounded the boat for a short while then, as luck played a part the boat rotated square to the waves, on the side of the hull & it somehow flipped onto the upright position on the 2 keels in a hollow in the sands.
They managed to motor off before the life boat came to rescue the 2yachts that were aground. My friend had substantial damage to skeg & rudder.

The point of this is that one should not think that having bilge keels is safer in a grounding situation. I have always had a fin keel & I have run aground on most of the sandbanks in the Thames estuary. But I have normally managed to get off fairly easily. The only damage being when I once hit a rock (Inverness)

We have bilge keel yachts on our moorings & several have ended up with damaged skegs over the years. I do not think that letting a bilge keel boat dry on a mooring, every tide, is a good thing, unless a very protected site.

 

[johnalison]

I have limited experience of sailing with bilge keels but I would say that although bilge keeled boats are in general perfectly safe and will do the job, fin keels are almost invariably nicer to sail and there is no point in having bilge keels unless you are actually going to take advantage of them. This means using them to dry out on and for access to cheaper moorings. I see a number of novice sailors who choose them because they think that less draft means less risk of grounding and are happier with shorter keels, but for most of us grounding is not really something to be concerned about and is a risk whatever the draft.

 

[Refueler]

A friend of mine ran aground in the lower sunkcrossing. A 45 ft Ketch's AIS showed MOB. So he went to its aid, not knowing it was actually aground. My friend did not realise that it was shallow. The yacht had a faulty VHF & was putting out sketchy maydays via another yacht nearby, also aground. The gear on the yacht made it look like people looking over the stern.

When my friend hit the bottom, he suddenly realised he was in breaking surf. I was in the main channel & was trying to warn him but he was not listening on his own VHF .
His 28 ft Leisure tripped over the bilge keel & went flat with the mast horizontal. How they never got thrown into the water is a miracle.The bilge keels prevented the boat coming to anything like upright. The waves pounded the boat for a short while then, as luck played a part the boat rotated square to the waves, on the side of the hull & it somehow flipped onto the upright position on the 2 keels in a hollow in the sands.
They managed to motor off before the life boat came to rescue the 2yachts that were aground. My friend had substantial damage to skeg & rudder.

The point of this is that one should not think that having bilge keels is safer in a grounding situation. I have always had a fin keel & I have run aground on most of the sandbanks in the Thames estuary. But I have normally managed to get off fairly easily. The only damage being when I once hit a rock (Inverness)

We have bilge keel yachts on our moorings & several have ended up with damaged skegs over the years. I do not think that letting a bilge keel boat dry on a mooring, every tide, is a good thing, unless a very protected site.

I've sailed all types of keel including wing. I chose Bilge Keel for my own boats .... and have never had any indication of tripping over a keel ... I can only think that the guy you watched must have been approaching at speed and angle to create that .... if its end on - the usual result is boat is turned to hit other keel as well ... you'd have to have a huge force to cause it to go over sidways.
I am not disbelieving your post - just commenting that there is more to it I reckon.

As to drying out regularly ... the whole design concept of Bilge Keels sprang from the era of Bilge Plates fitted to long keelers ... evolved into a very successful format.
YBW did a comparison of Sadler Fin vs Bilge and conclusion was near zero difference. I agree that Sadler had aero'd the keels to improve 'flow'.

To OP ... as others have said - it comes down to where you sail and facilities available ... plus BK's give you greater choice on mooring. Going further afield ? Even Centaurs etc. with BK's have crossed Atlantic ... Silhouettes to Canary's .... don't let the idea of BK vs Fin be so deciding ...

Yes I'm biased !!

 

[Snowgoose-1]

It's not unusual to see bilge Keeler's drying out nose down which is a bit worrying. They do seem to be a British oddity not taken up much elsewhere.

 

[Tranona]

From what you say it would seem that the shallower draft and drying out potential is of little interest (in my view over rated on this size boat anyway). Moodys only introduced it on this boat because Westerlys also offered bilge keels. The loss in sailing performance due to the keels is small and mostly in making to windward. The measure of performance for longer distance cruising is daily runs and other factors than keel differences can have more effect. Sails and drag from propellers have far more impact, so good sails and a feathering propeller can offset any marginal difference because of the less efficient keels. A feathering prop adds roughly 0.5 knots to average speed under sail which is far more than the difference between a fin keel and bilge.

When buying boats of this type and age condition is all important and a well equipped bilge keel boat would be a better bet than a so-so fin keel at the same price. The problem with buying boats like this (rather than new) is that you can only buy what is on offer and you rarely have a choice that is as simple as fin or bilge being the only difference (unlike when I bought new, I chose the shallow draft keel option because it suited me - but subsequent owners have to live with my decision).

Set yourself a budget for purchase and upgrading to the level you want and suspect you will find that the type of keel will not feature high on your list of priorities. If it is any help many bilge keel boats from that era have proven successful at long term cruising, not necessarily because of the benefits, but because that was the boat the owners had. Success in longer term cruising and passage making has more to do with how well the boat is equipped and managed by the crew than any minor differences in sailing performance.

 

[Graham376]

We had a bilge keel 346 for about 4 years. Compared to previous Centaur and Berwick, far less slamming. We were sailing from Conwy down to France each year so covered quite a few miles and found it to be reasonably quick. Two negatives from our experience, having to stoop at the galley due to head height and despite replacing wheel pilot with linear drive, still somewhat directionally unstable but that was also noted in the YM used boat test for the fin keel version. Changed to a 376 (fin) which we've had for about 18 years now, steers like it's on rails.

 

[Refueler]

This is a non reconciled discussion that has raged for decades ...... and there will never be a result.

It is so full of bias .... you really have to decide for oneself.

 

[Daydream believer]

There are 2 types of fin keel.( lots really so this is a generalisation) Long & short. My first long keeled yacht was an absolute delight to sail. My current short finned yacht is better in most respects except it does not heave too & it does not have that lovely feel on the helm. It responds sharply to every touch, instead of a gentle, "do you really want to do that?"., before settling into a groove (except down wind- when it just wanted to throw me off, like a rodeo horse.)
But I would not go back to a long keel, simply because of the loss in performance.

But I have to say that the video by YM does show what a brilliant boat the Contessa is in a sea. The helsman did not seem to be struggling at all. I could sail just as quick,probably be drier, more upright, but would be less comfortable & have to work the helm more.

 

[penfold]

For offshore sailing I'd have thought closehauled performance is of less importance than the ease of control via vane steering; no one other than a complete nutter is going to hand steer for any length of time.

 

[Refueler]

For offshore sailing I'd have thought closehauled performance is of less importance than the ease of control via vane steering; no one other than a complete nutter is going to hand steer for any length of time.

And really if doing long offshore - are you going to be racing ?? I think majority would be happy to be proceeding at reasonable rate and with reasonable control - albeit usually by auto.

I have been 'questioned' about my sailing across Baltic / Eng Channel in my 25ft'r ... with bilge keels. Never felt she was doing anything not capable of ... set the tiller pilot and then enjoyed the sailing. Been caught out a few times - as I think we all have - again ... she performed well ...
I have never felt having a Long or Fin keel would have changed that ...

As to OP choice ? TBH - I would choose the best condition 346 along with what gear comes with it ... pretty well ignoring the Fin vs Bilge argument. The 346 and generally Moody are not going to win races !! They are cruising boats.

Biased - yes !!

 

[Birdseye]

Id I was worried about performance I wouldnt chose a Moody 346 fin or bilge. Nothing wrong with them as boats but design has moved on since they were built.

My own experience of club racing a Moody 336 bilge some years ago was that it was just as quick through the water as the fin but pointed maybe 5 deg worse on a beat. But if you are going longer term crusing, as I have done, the last thing you willingly do is to set off for anywhere on a beat. You wait until you have a decent reach at least.

A fin is limiting in terms of where you can park. Some areas of the world this doesnt matter but in others it does.

As refueler says, as decent autopilot ( ie a below deck hydraulic jobbie) is a much more important issue if sailing distance

 

[Supertramp]

I don't know the Moody but two factors not already mentioned.

Bilge keels can give a more stable ride down wind with less rolling although I have sometimes worried about tripping over the lee keel in large, steep quartering seas. No idea if the Moody achieves this but it should do being a modern design.

The biggest benefit for some is the access to sheltered anchorages where you can dry out or risk going into shallower water than others. Some cruising areas are quite different if you can access drying or shallow areas.

Day to day in normal cruising I think you would barely notice the difference until you have to scrape the insides of the keels.....

 

[penfold]

Is a 15" difference in draft really going to change much? Not on the west coast where the bottom is generally made of hard stuff, anywhere I could get with 3' 9" I'm happy going with 5'. I can't comment for the brown water side of things.

 

[johnalison]

Is a 15" difference in draft really going to change much? Not on the west coast where the bottom is generally made of hard stuff, anywhere I could get with 3' 9" I'm happy going with 5'. I can't comment for the brown water side of things.

You might be surprised by the number of us who sail with fin keels on the East Coast. There are really rather few places that are inaccessible to deeper keels, though they do exist, mostly in the form of creeks, where they can often provide economical moorings. The main waterways and river entrances are all navigable, though some require care whatever the keel.

You can if you wish have a sailing life without beating, but you will be using your engine a lot more. There are times, especially for working people when a beat home is forced on you, and a 5 degree loss can become significant. I would not set off across the North Sea or Channel with the wind on the nose, but sometimes the nature of a slant on a medium length passage can make the difference between pleasure and pain.