Beware “Indulgence” (of Orwell)

[johnalison]

IMHO all the above incidents just mirror the way society in the UK has moved since everyone was told they 'had rights' but forgot to point out with rights come responsibilities, and that good manners were a thing of the past.

I think you are exactly right. It also comes with a cultural loss. The sea no longer represents something with mystical qualities and perhaps its own 'personality' but has just become a playground for those with more money than grey matter. The difficulty for traditionalists is that these behaviours appear so weird that when they do occur they catch us unprepared for them.

 

[jimi]

Did you have a motoring cone showing?

The anchor warp had a good view of it.

 

[Marmalade]

Always wondered what impede means in Rule 9 - ie does it mean any alteration of course (eg to comply with rule 13) or is it only impeding if it forces the other vessel to do something drastic?

 

[Marmalade]

Can I ask how you made it up Marmalade please?

Long standing piece of sophisticated kit at Marconi SC. Essentially a broom handle with a wooden (three dimensional) ball diamond ball painted black and nailed to it. Sits in an old flagstaff slot on the wheelhouse roof of our main working boat that tows the mooring barge. I'll see if I can look out a pic...

 

[Supine Being]

I have, in the past, taken out inexperienced crew that have their comp crew or day skipper but have little practical experience. On a couple of occasions they have been puzzled when motoring up the Crouch that I have passed stbd to stbd with a vessel that is nowhere near me (20-30m plus) and plenty of room for all, where an attempt to pass port to port would've left everyone else on the river very confused. I think the problem is, perhaps, that it's easy to glean these bits of information from RYA training and from books but, without much practical experience, it can be difficult to set them in a real-world context.

Sailing with a skipper with at least some practical experience can help to knock off these misconceptions and apply some practical application. I guess the problem is that some of those with fatter wallets can do a basic amount of training and, armed with their "qualification" head out as skipper on their newly purchased boat and apply all their misconceptions in the real world, all whilst shaking their fists in righteous indignation because... they know that particular rule.

In every walk of life I find people that apply The Rules "ad absurdum". Those that treat rules and procedures in the same way that a drunk treats a lamp post - not for enlightenment, but for support. I avoid those people where possible.

 

[Tomahawk]

Would anyone hazard what may occur if the said skipper of Indulgence was to find this thread.. ?

 

[Stork_III]

Would anyone hazard what may occur if the said skipper of Indulgence was to find this thread.. ?

Keep his head down, and keyboard quiet?

 

[Capt Popeye]

Yes I do rather mourn the passing of the legality of carrying a Very Pistol, to be used to warn 'others' of impending danger, most effective in getting attention from offending Craft and their Masters {#

 

[xyachtdave]

Would anyone hazard what may occur if the said skipper of Indulgence was to find this thread.. ?

Presumably we’d get the popcorn ready?

 

[Capt Popeye]

Would anyone hazard what may occur if the said skipper of Indulgence was to find this thread.. ?

Humm, might be quite oblivious to the seriousness of actions or unable to recognise themselves Eh ?

Anyways this is a Boating and Yachting site, why would they read it ?

 

[Poecheng]

Would anyone hazard what may occur if the said skipper of Indulgence was to find this thread.. ?

I am sure they would reflect on matters.
However, (moving away from that particular circumstance), a lot of people these day just keep insisting they are right and decline to ever consider they can be in the wrong and the fact they wanted to do something is more than enough justification for doing it !

 

[Gitane]

Always wondered what impede means in Rule 9 - ie does it mean any alteration of course (eg to comply with rule 13) or is it only impeding if it forces the other vessel to do something drastic?

I have always taken it to mean that one vessel will not put itself in such a position that the other vessel needs to change course to avoid a collision.

But that’s just my interpretation, so I would be interested to hear of other interpretations.

 

[Black Sheep]

Would anyone hazard what may occur if the said skipper of Indulgence was to find this thread.. ?

I don't know. But if I were the OP, having vented my frustration, I might now be considering editing the first post.

Fair enough to describe the incident itself as he saw it, but some of the more flowery assertions about the competence, knowledge and mental health of the other skipper could be considered defamatory. This is a public forum, and the skipper, or his friends and family, could easily see this while googling the boat name.

I do uderstand that if you've been forced into what you consider a dangerous situation, one wants to vent steam. But now may be the time to reduce it to facts rather than speculation. And consider whether changing the thread title might be appropriate (though I understand that's not easy)

 

[LittleSister]

I have, in the past, taken out inexperienced crew that have their comp crew or day skipper but have little practical experience. On a couple of occasions they have been puzzled when motoring up the Crouch that I have passed stbd to stbd with a vessel that is nowhere near me (20-30m plus) and plenty of room for all, where an attempt to pass port to port would've left everyone else on the river very confused. . .

In every walk of life I find people that apply The Rules "ad absurdum".

But your example of an inappropriate attempt to pass port-to port would not be applying the rules 'ad absurdum', but of failing to understand and follow the rules. Those crossing rules apply only when there is a risk of collision, the two vessels are on a reciprocal or near reciprocal course, etc.

 

[Leighb]

Always wondered what impede means in Rule 9 - ie does it mean any alteration of course (eg to comply with rule 13) or is it only impeding if it forces the other vessel to do something drastic?

It is not defined in the ColRegs, so presumably is capable of interpretation, not a very satisfactory situation?

 

[Tomahawk]

I don't know. But if I were the OP, having vented my frustration, I might now be considering editing the first post.

Fair enough to describe the incident itself as he saw it, but some of the more flowery assertions about the competence, knowledge and mental health of the other skipper could be considered defamatory. This is a public forum, and the skipper, or his friends and family, could easily see this while googling the boat name.

I do uderstand that if you've been forced into what you consider a dangerous situation, one wants to vent steam. But now may be the time to reduce it to facts rather than speculation. And consider whether changing the thread title might be appropriate (though I understand that's not easy)

Reading the OP again, it appears that intelligent altered course hard to Starbird and thereby put themselves onto a collision course with the OP. That forced the OP also turned hard to Stabat.

My understanding of the current rates would be that if you are at risk of a collision U-turns Stabat the other vessel also turns to Stabat. my understanding of the cold rakes would be that if you are at risk of a collision U-turn to Stabat the other vessel also turns to Stabat. But if you are not at risk of a collision ,,,,,

 

[Kukri]

Taking what I think is called a long view, I was beating up the Deben against a northerly, single handed, in my third boat, all eighteen feet of her, towing my plywood hard chine pram dinghy (on a shortened painter!) and was on starboard tack, heading west, a bit above no.1 green buoy,when a great big (to me!) Westerly Centaur, running free on port tack yelled “starboard!!” at me and smashed in the starboard topsides of my dinghy! Needless to say he did not stop or apologise.

This was about 1978.

The scene of the crime:

 

[Marmalade]

I have always taken it to mean that one vessel will not put itself in such a position that the other vessel needs to change course to avoid a collision.

But that’s just my interpretation, so I would be interested to hear of other interpretations.

I've thought that too - but on reflection, isn't that simply "navigating one's vessel in accordance with colregs" ? In other words, if I'm "stand-on" and another vessel is "give way" does that mean I'm impeding it?

If a big-un spots me crossing the lane 24 miles away on his radar and alters course by 2 degrees so that he passes comfortably in front of my sailing vessel (he's still comfortably within the lane) - have I impeded him?

I then wonder whether "impede" means forcing another vessel to avoid a collision by doing something NOT normally required by colregs or forcing a vessel that can only operate safely within a channel to leave that channel to avoid a collision.

 

[Gitane]

Not sure.

I know there is provision in the Col Regs about vessels, unless it’s foggy, having to be in sight of each other AND that a danger of collision should exist. Whilst the big-un may see the vessel on radar, I would thought that the sailboat would not see the big-un, unless it’s a really big-un.

So, as the vessels cannot see each other, I would have thought no action is required of either vessel, so one vessel cannot cannot be said to impede the other.


But, that is just my interpretation, so I may wrong on this one.

 

[WF36]

Maybe they read this thread?

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