Jamesuk
Well-Known Member
German Frers
Best Yacht Designer in the GRP Era
- Thread starter LONG_KEELER
- Start date
German Frers
jimi
Well-Known Member
As one with a Bill Dixon designed boat, I obviously consider him the best yacht designer ;-)
Andy61
Well-Known Member
Great, interesting post! For me as with a lot of others Stephen Jones, Bruce Farr, German Frers, David Sadler and on it goes. It depends what you want from a boat. For me, sailing ability is high up there so I have to add the so far unmentioned Martin Sadler (Sadler 34).
An interesting thread drift ........... I have sailed some Rivals and they are great sea boats that sail well, but did Peter Brett design them? Peter Brett designed the D25 and the D27 (numbers being the waterline length in feet) which were wooden boats and then moulds were made of these and fibreglass boats produced called Rivals. Maybe this is semantics or pedantry gone mad.
Off to buy my lottery ticket for the big one tonight and consider who will get a cut, will it be Discovery, Hallberg Rassey, Besteaver, oh and I like the look of the Blue Jacket 40................................ dream.
An interesting thread drift ........... I have sailed some Rivals and they are great sea boats that sail well, but did Peter Brett design them? Peter Brett designed the D25 and the D27 (numbers being the waterline length in feet) which were wooden boats and then moulds were made of these and fibreglass boats produced called Rivals. Maybe this is semantics or pedantry gone mad.
Off to buy my lottery ticket for the big one tonight and consider who will get a cut, will it be Discovery, Hallberg Rassey, Besteaver, oh and I like the look of the Blue Jacket 40................................ dream.
LONG_KEELER
Well-Known Member
Fair point.
I expect making moulds to such an exacting standard was one of the "firsts" that had to be overcome . Nice to know that lots of human skill went into all GRP hulls that could be repeated
time and again.
In the late sixties/early 70's lots of Folkboat type hulls were produced. I used to own one of these
and a shipwright spoke of how many were moulded in two parts because of narrow beam and
long keel. When replacing the rubbing strake I noticed that the knuckle width was different from
one side to another. You could also see at the bow and stern the join where the two halves were glassed together.
I expect like sails, hull moulds are laser cut now.
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JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
On a similar basis, I worship at the feet of Chuck Paine and Oliver Lee.
I wonder, though, if there have ever been any bad designers. There have been bad designs (the shroud and keel attachments on a Centaur) and there have been failed designs (the GT35) but have any dud designers ever made it commercially?
AndrewfromFal
Well-Known Member
Hmmm, that's a big stir of the pot right there! There's a couple of designers whose boats I don't care for (and I suspect that will be true of one designer or another for most posting here), but most who make it commercially seem to climb the learning curve and improve their product over time.
JimBrown
Well-Known Member
One of the best designers "in the GRP era" has to be Derek Kelsall.
He understood the material when most designers were still being overly cautious. Not only did he build the largest GRP monohull at the time (Sir Thomas Lipton), but his glass/foam multihull racers in the RBI and OSTAR etc proved to be both competitive and durable.
Even to this day his real understanding of the engineering of composite structures allows him to achieve in polyester/foam what most other designers would claim was only possible in epoxy and high modulus fibres.
He pioneered the UK multihull designing world to be streaks ahead of anything that was done in monohulls, and if Britain had any 'culture' or affinity with multihulls, the names of Kelsall, Shuttleworth, Irens, etc would be recognised as the true masters of the medium.
He understood the material when most designers were still being overly cautious. Not only did he build the largest GRP monohull at the time (Sir Thomas Lipton), but his glass/foam multihull racers in the RBI and OSTAR etc proved to be both competitive and durable.
Even to this day his real understanding of the engineering of composite structures allows him to achieve in polyester/foam what most other designers would claim was only possible in epoxy and high modulus fibres.
He pioneered the UK multihull designing world to be streaks ahead of anything that was done in monohulls, and if Britain had any 'culture' or affinity with multihulls, the names of Kelsall, Shuttleworth, Irens, etc would be recognised as the true masters of the medium.
Goldie
Well-Known Member
I'm not going to suggest a 'best' - it's horses for courses - but to reflect further credit on Alan F Hill, you could, off the top of my head, add to the Halberdier:
Moody Cavalier, Biscay 36 (of course
), Cutlass, Vivacity 21 and 24, Coaster 33, Duellist, Trident, Claymore, Sabre, Tomahawk, Striker 22 etc. That adds up to a lot of divers boats built, and being as we're talking 'GRP ERA' not GRP boats, let's not forget his ferro designs as sailed by the illustrious Mike Peyton.He did a survey for me a few years ago, a very nice man too.
doris
Well-Known Member
Absolutely 100% agree. Up there with Mr Jones as one the greatest
doris
Well-Known Member
Er the builder is the one who determines cost. The designer is commissioned to design a boat, simples, then it's up the builder to sell it. If the price is wrong nothing sells, from tin pots to houses to yachts.
JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
With all due respect, cobblers. The builder may determine selling price, but every decision the designer takes affects the cost and a designer who ignored that would not get many commissions.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Exactly. one of the things claimed for the GT 35 was that it had design features that were inherently expensive to build and it was this that set it apart from cheaper rivals.
The development of computer aided design to do the calculations has reduced the chances of producing a dud in terms of performance against defined criteria, but has allowed, particularly for mass producers, refinement in production methods and detail design that leads to better value products.
Contrast with the observation earlier about Folkboat GRP hulls that were different shapes on each side. This sort of thing and other examples of poor design, engineering and workmanship was common in the past as anybody who worked in boatbuilding in the 70's and 80's will know.
Chris_Robb
Well-Known Member
Van der Stad - great all rounders and sea boats including some that went straight when off the wind!
Sybarite
Well-Known Member
The Discovery was originally intended to be a top of the range Westerly, but they went broke before bringing it online.
alant
Well-Known Member
And the Seastreams.
Seajet
...
In a way you may be right, on the ' Bullshit Baffles Brains ' principle, judging by them selling more than one Cornish Shrimper !
You of all people should acknowledge the merits of Oliver Lee's designs.
Re new Anderson 22's I and the ex- MD Patrick Sinker - yes he laughs about his name too, once got a mention in the Telegraph ' bloke who runs boatyard called Sinker ' - got together with a Jester Racer boatbuilder and discussed building new ones
' Plan ' would be overstating it a bit but I did a bit of research inc electric engines.
We did some quick sums and realised even then - 20 years ago a simple well equipped example, with my spec of good but not exotic deck gear, would be £38,000 before ANY profit for us !
We had a quick discussion on the lines of " anyone in their right mind could get a sparkling Contessa 32 and keep her in a marina for a good few years for that ! " and quietley shuffled away from the idea.
We still have the moulds and I have hopes for some time in the future with a modified version, but for now considering the recession I reckon we dodged not just a bullet but a 16" shell...
In this case the design was fine and we hadn't got as far as marketing, but even if we'd put up the best ad's ever we recognised it was simply the wrong boat at the wrong time; I realised that despite my enthusiasm, perhaps some other builders should have felt the same.
To return to the original premise,
the designer - Oliver Lee - had done his job very well, it wasn't his fault how the market fluctuated !
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doug748
Well-Known Member
Tranona;5563498..........Contrast with the observation earlier about Folkboat GRP hulls that were different shapes on each side. This sort of thing and other examples of poor design said:
rogerball0
N/A
+1
I wouldn't have guessed how asymmetrical a Centaur was until i undertook to build a cradle for mine when removing the keels / cutting the bottom off of mine not to mention the amount of hardboard & polyester (car-body) filler used in its construction............................yes thats right.........hardboard - the stuff you see in the back of cupboards!
..................They dont build them like that anymore........................
Porthandbuoy
Well-Known Member
From the Nicholson draughtboard. I have the baby of the fleet.
Nicholson 26 - 64 boats
Nicholson 27 - 18 boats
Nicholson 32 - 389 boats
Nicholson 35 - 228 boats
Nicholson 38 - 134 boats
Nicholson 39 - 63 boats
Nicholson 33 - 120 boats
Nicholson 26 - 64 boats
Nicholson 27 - 18 boats
Nicholson 32 - 389 boats
Nicholson 35 - 228 boats
Nicholson 38 - 134 boats
Nicholson 39 - 63 boats
Nicholson 33 - 120 boats
JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
Absolutely. The 490 handles like a dream.
Meh. All you had to do was market it well. Some bloke on the internet said so ...
Of course it's not really Oliver Lee's fault. It's the change in production engineering which has led to the price of bigger boats plummeting and the vast number of cheaper, old, smaller boats on the market. Practically nobody is making boats in that sort of size now, and with good reason.
