Best Value For Money New Generation Anchor

jordanbasset said:
Agree with your post. I ordered mine from Force 4 Chandlery in the UK and had it delivered to Corfu. Cost of a 14kg Kobra 2 including delivery was £166.70 (delivery cost was £36.75)
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That's the answer I wanted to send - but I have no idea how to buy a Kobra in Greece with Flica's restrictions - that tyranny of distance! (with apologies to Geoffrey Blainey)

Thanks Jordan!

I suspect that even with the delivery cost its still good value for money - it certainly looks good value from here :(

I think I mentioned - we bought ours in the UK and brought it back as checked in baggage, 15kg. We did need to plan this to ensure when we left Oz we could check it in, when we came back, without any excess baggage costs - it did need a bit of planning. Now why did they not make it in alloy?

Jonathan

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And, talking of alloy - if you are going to America West Marine had some great prices on selected Fortress models and as long as you don't want a FX55, 85 or 125 (which might have been outside the good pricing) they are light and small enough to fit into a decent sized suitcase.

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Neeves said:
That's the answer I wanted to send - but I have no idea how to buy a Kobra in Greece with Flica's restrictions - that tyranny of distance! (with apologies to Geoffrey Blainey)

Thanks Jordan!

I suspect that even with the delivery cost its still good value for money - it certainly looks good value from here :(

I think I mentioned - we bought ours in the UK and brought it back as checked in baggage, 15kg. We did need to plan this to ensure when we left Oz we could check it in, when we came back, without any excess baggage costs - it did need a bit of planning. Now why did they not make it in alloy?

Jonathan

Edit

And, talking of alloy - if you are going to America West Marine had some great prices on selected Fortress models and as long as you don't want a FX55, 85 or 125 (which might have been outside the good pricing) they are light and small enough to fit into a decent sized suitcase.

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To end uncertainty FX11 delivered N Evvia €203 + €12, a 13lb Mantus would have been €168, courier probably more as weight higher.

Prices in UK are usually higher than here in Greece and the transport costs are MUCH higher. The only more expensive element in Greece is the VAT @ 24% compared to 20% in UK.
Of course Fortress and Mantus are US-based manufacturers. Spade, Kobra French, ROCNA, China made Canadian owned SARCA, Australian.
US-produced anchors are likely to be cheaper in the US from West Marine.
Perhaps, I surmise, all those who proudly announce their anchor is the best in the world, merely know how to use them.
Life is too short and pockets too shallow to try every one of the competing anchors.
 
BelleSerene said:
Best VfM new-generation anchor? If you'll allow a broad definition of NG anchors, here's a bid: www.eco-nautisme.com/

It's reviewed in October's Voile Magazine (which you can buy from their iPad or iPhone app). Complete kit €79, to bolt to your existing trusty Brittany-type anchor.

New Generation? Some here would say. Best VfM? May be hard to dispute!
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Trying to correct the design-faults of the Brittany.
My 30 year old SWMF, has the mud-palms of the Fortress and the extension fluke-ends to ensure it never lands on its side, works OK but @ 6kg it's too difficult to handle over the stern.
 
As far as I know Mantus do not make anything.

Fortress (and Guardian) are made in the USA from American alloy, Spade are made in Tunisia, Knox are made in Scotland, galvanised in Scotland and were made using HT steel, Corus, from England. Supreme is made and galvanised in NZ. Anchor Right, both the Excel and SARCA, made in Australia with Australian steel (the HT steel comes from Bisalloy, just south of Sydney). Mantus, Delta, Kobra, Rocna all from China. Lots of Bugels appear to be made at the eastern end of the Med, or they are very popular there. Ultra are made in Turkey.

I think original Danforths made by Tie Down might still come from the US. Super Max, a niche American anchor, I think still made in the US. Lots of West Marine home brands appear to come from China but their Scoop, an own brand, comes from Manson in NZ (and made there).

Many nefarious copies - China, including Rocna clones, lots of CQR and Bruce clones, DC anchor (comes from Qingdao), China.

China, obviously, offers a cheap manufacturing base and some of those low costs do appear to be passed on to the customer in the case of both Kobra (Plastimo) and Delta (Lewmar).

Jonathan
 
To Clarify: Knox anchors are made in the UK from steel sourced in the UK, but more likely the steel was actually manufactured in Germany. Corus doesn't exist any more, and steel companies keep changing names, and ownership. Tata, Liberty, a re-invented British Steel (not the same Co as the old BS), Acelor Mittal, and Thyssen Krupp and all brands available in the UK now.

With exchange rates the way they are at the moment, importing an anchor from nearly anywhere into the UK is more expensive than before.
But buying a UK made anchor from outside the UK is very good price wise compared to recent times.

At Knox, we've seen an increase in EU sales. Not sure if it's the attractive exchange rate or the rush to beat the Brexit uncertainty?
 
Neeves said:
As far as I know Mantus do not make anything.

Fortress (and Guardian) are made in the USA from American alloy, Spade are made in Tunisia, Knox are made in Scotland, galvanised in Scotland and were made using HT steel, Corus, from England. Supreme is made and galvanised in NZ. Anchor Right, both the Excel and SARCA, made in Australia with Australian steel (the HT steel comes from Bisalloy, just south of Sydney). Mantus, Delta, Kobra, Rocna all from China. Lots of Bugels appear to be made at the eastern end of the Med, or they are very popular there. Ultra are made in Turkey.

I think original Danforths made by Tie Down might still come from the US. Super Max, a niche American anchor, I think still made in the US. Lots of West Marine home brands appear to come from China but their Scoop, an own brand, comes from Manson in NZ (and made there).

Many nefarious copies - China, including Rocna clones, lots of CQR and Bruce clones, DC anchor (comes from Qingdao), China.

China, obviously, offers a cheap manufacturing base and some of those low costs do appear to be passed on to the customer in the case of both Kobra (Plastimo) and Delta (Lewmar).

Jonathan
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The FOB anchors (Britany and Rock) are made in France.
 
Sybarite said:
The FOB anchors (Britany and Rock) are made in France.
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Thanks Sybarite. I deliberately did not mention some anchors as I simply do not know where they are made - I was not ignoring their existence (maybe I should have said I did not know!) But I am sure I missed other European anchors - that we simply do not see here. We do see Brittanies but very occasionally they are sometimes on Bennys and Jennys at boat shows. Interestingly at the recent Sydney show in August many of the French boats had Kobras as commissioning anchors, obviously came with the boat. By many, maybe 5.

I could add I think the CQR is still made in Scotland, which would be the reason its so expensive (there are cheaper ways now to make an anchor (the CQR arrived before welding became commonplace) - but I don't know as I do not see new CQRs.

Geoff, I have been following the machinations of the UK steel industry but had found it difficult to work out what the final conclusions were. I used to be intimately involved but many of the production units are no longer.

Jonathan
 
Neeves said:
Thanks Sybarite. I deliberately did not mention some anchors as I simply do not know where they are made - I was not ignoring their existence (maybe I should have said I did not know!) But I am sure I missed other European anchors - that we simply do not see here. We do see Brittanies but very occasionally they are sometimes on Bennys and Jennys at boat shows. Interestingly at the recent Sydney show in August many of the French boats had Kobras as commissioning anchors, obviously came with the boat. By many, maybe 5.

I could add I think the CQR is still made in Scotland, which would be the reason its so expensive (there are cheaper ways now to make an anchor (the CQR arrived before welding became commonplace) - but I don't know as I do not see new CQRs.

Geoff, I have been following the machinations of the UK steel industry but had found it difficult to work out what the final conclusions were. I used to be intimately involved but many of the production units are no longer.

Jonathan
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I don't think that CQRs are made in Scotland any more. In fact I don't think they're made anywhere, other than under names like "Plough", "Plough type" and so on, and those probably from China.
 
Reading previous posts on related topics I had understood Oyster, and maybe others, quoted and/or supplied genuine CQRs as commission equipment (which is why I had assumed CQRs are still made). They also appear in the Lewmar catalogue, though maybe my catalogue is old. I don't see many Oysters here in Oz, one I recall - so what is the current position (or is there a huge stock in a Lewmar warehouse?)

If you want to buy local then Knox is a much better replacement and at least as good as its peers and a Kobra is streets ahead in performance as the next generation convex.

Jonathan
 
Neeves said:
Reading previous posts on related topics I had understood Oyster, and maybe others, quoted and/or supplied genuine CQRs as commission equipment (which is why I had assumed CQRs are still made). They also appear in the Lewmar catalogue, though maybe my catalogue is old. I don't see many Oysters here in Oz, one I recall - so what is the current position (or is there a huge stock in a Lewmar warehouse?)
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Lewmar bought the CQR trademark, which has been going since the fifties, from Simpson-Lawrence when they went bust about 15 years ago. The main other anchor brand Lewmar owns is Delta.

Not sure why Geoff MM5AHO thinks they’re no longer made.

Quite where (in China?) and how CQR anchors are made isn’t clear from anything I have seen. (They say it’s drop-forged.)

Funny that Lewmar markets the CQR as ‘has gained legendary status for its superior performance’. Well it did while it was.
 
Not being entirely comfortable that a reputable Scottish company should be incorrectly labelled as having gone bust I think the following link might be useful

http://listofcompanies.co.in/2012/02/07/lewmar-marine-limited/

It is odd that they dumped the Simpson Lawrence name as it is still accepted today, had an august reputation and many of its products are still giving stalwart service - but nostalgia does not pay executive salaries - and Lewmar it is!

We, the forum, looked into Lewmar in some detail 1-2 years ago, I don't recall why, and I think it is owned primarily by largely Scots private investors and, or as, an investment fund.

I don't think the link is entirely upto date.

Given the prices I see for genuine CQRs - they surely are not made in China (if they are still made).

Jonathan
 
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Neeves said:
Not being entirely comfortable that a reputable Scottish company should be incorrectly labelled as having gone bust I think the following link might be useful

http://listofcompanies.co.in/2012/02/07/lewmar-marine-limited/

It is odd that they dumped the Simpson Lawrence name as it is still accepted today, had an august reputation and many of its products are still giving stalwart service - but nostalgia does not pay executive salaries - and Lewmar it is!

We, the forum, looked into Lewmar in some detail 1-2 years ago, I don't recall why, and I think it is owned primarily by largely Scots private investors and, or as, an investment fund.

I don't think the link is entirely upto date.

Given the prices I see for genuine CQRs - they surely are not made in China (if they are still made).

Jonathan
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It seems Sowester Simpson Lawrence went bankrupt in 2001: http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/news/sowester-simpson-lawrence-in-administration-27557 Some of its rights, including trademarks and names, including of CQR, were acquired from the administrator.

Simpson-Lawrence Limited, a previous name of what is now Lewmar Limited, was dormant for a few years after its establishment in the mid-90s.

Yes, Lewmar is owned by a bunch of people, including some private equity.

I don’t know why genuine CQRs would surely not be made in China – but granted, they’re more expensive weight-for-weight, and Rocnas are not exactly cheap!

But yes, CQRs are still being made:
http://www.lewmar.com/node/11593
http://www.lewmar.com/node/11600
 
Need to clarify what I said about CQR's not being made any more.
More accurate to say that there are no CQR's made the way the original drop forged ones by SL were made.
There are various models made now. Some are called "CQR type" anchors, some are called "Plough type" and so on.
Lewmar make a similar anchor using the trade name thy have apparently registered, perhaps bought from an administrator of a company? This is a fabricated anchor similar to but not the same as the original CQR.
The image on their website appears to be a rendered drawing as opposed to a photograph.
There are some obvious changes from the original design by Geoffrey Taylor back in the 1930s.
 
MM5AHO said:
Need to clarify what I said about CQR's not being made any more.
More accurate to say that there are no CQR's made the way the original drop forged ones by SL were made.
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Really? Say Lewmar of their CQRs, "The original drop-forged construction of the C.Q.R.® anchor increases its strength and reliability under load – a genuine C.Q.R.® anchor will not break." You're not suggesting they are being disingenuous by implying that their current anchors are drop-forged when they're not, are you?
http://www.lewmar.com/sites/default/files/CQR Anchor specifications.pdf

Here they are: http://www.lewmar.com/anchoring, both their traditional galvanised CQRs and their stainless ones.

I suggest the rest of what you write is about other firms' knock-offs, just as Lewmar do a 'claw' anchor that is a Bruce take-off.

MM5AHO said:
There are some obvious changes from the original design by Geoffrey Taylor back in the 1930s.
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I should hope so too! Not enough changes, though, to keep up with the march of technology over the intervening eighty years, nor to justify a price premium over a premium NG anchor!
 
My thought was that drop forging is very 19th century and I would have thought not much used today. If they were still made in Scotland the facility would be unusual and the whole process possibly quite expensive.

If they are still original equipment on an Oyster and still say, 'Made in Scotland' which they did in the past then there is either a big stock (again expensive) or....

Don't knock them - Skip Novak uses a 100lb model in quite a large yacht in and around Patagonia - they do work! they are used regularly by some pretty reputable people, some of whom are on here!

Jonathan
 
I took a genuine 20kg Bruce (currently for sale on gumtree) off the boat because it was too heavy - I prefer an anchor in the anchor locker rather than hanging off the bow. It was replaced with a 15kg Vulcan which I can handle more easily and which fitted whereas the Rocna didn't. I also have a Fortress FX11 (brought back in luggage from the US) for a kedge. Is it being said that I could replace the Vulcan with the FX11? Not sure I would trust that.

The problems I have with the notion of ideal anchors for each ground is that you often don't know what the ground is - today's charts have minimal information in comparison to older ones. And I only have one windlass. I don't really see me scouting around an anchorage and then swapping anchors over (and how would I know what was really best without diving down?)
 
Lewmar say of their CQR anchors, here (http://www.lewmar.com/node/11593) "... Now with fabricated galvanised construction the C.Q.R.® continues ..." The word "now" implies a changed method. The word "fabricated" says it's not drop forged.

It's not a problem to not be drop forged. As Neeves says that's pretty old technology.
If anyone is expecting that an original drop forged CQR, made in Scotlands (as the old ones were stamped) is the same as the new improved CQR, then they will be disappointed. That isn't a comment on the new fabricated CQR, just pointing out that its different to the old one.

But it seems a bit pointless to refer to the advantages (as quoted by BelleSerene) of the old design, and then say that the current isn't the same.
Then to refer to a "genuine drop forged" CQR as being superior, at the same time as saying theirs is a newer method of construction seems contradictory.
 
I'd be suggesting an FX16 against a 15kg Vulcan, not a FX11. Fortress might suggest an FX23 against the 15kg Vulcan - BUT depends on the size of your yacht. We have a A80 and a No4 alloy Excel, both weigh at 8kg and their steel equivalents are 15kg. The Fortress recommendation for our cat was the FX23, which I think over large for good holding seabeds and actually now have a FX16, since my last post. It has not yet seen its new home - we have obviously yet to try it. I sized the FX16 against the S80 and the fluke areas are of a similar size (different geometry), just by laying one on top of the other.

It would be very unusual, unless you are in Labrador or Patagonia not to have access to bottom types in a known anchorage.

Now why do you think we favour alloy anchors!

When we originally tried setting in gloopy mud some years ago we tried using our Excel, which usually sits on our bow roller. It did not offer hold so we retrieved it and tried the Spade on our spare rode, deployed by hand. it did not work so we tried the Fortress, deployed by hand. It worked, crack open the shiraz.

The yacht after us Loki, Swan 46? tried their CQR 5 times and still had no success and then went and tied to a tree. Here she is as they try to clear the mud after one of the many attempts, in the rain. I think the seabed type here is very obvious :)

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=...hVBuJQKHdvgC4wQ9QEIOTAF#imgrc=y8j9Tp6Z5hVPCM:

If your anchor does not set I assume you pull it up - there is usually some indication on the fluke of what the seabed is.

In addition to current charts we still have old fathom charts, The Admiralty Pilots, and a selection of Cruising Guides. We supplement with Google Earth images of the anchorages we have not used previously and might use (printed out as hard copy). The Admiralty appear to have visited every known anchorage in Australia - in vessels of a similar size to ours. Older Pilot books are more relevant than the new ones.

Jonathan
 
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I have read many times that Oyster Yachts still specify CQR anchors. On TV the other day there was another of the occasional superyacht envy programmes (part of the Coast series) that we are subjected to, featuring an Oyster 54. The anchor on the bow roller looked very much like a CQR to me.

Drop forging remains live and well, although not carried out by hand very much today. Complex forged shapes such as automotive front suspension uprights, drive shafts and the like are still made using this technology. It is a highly skilled process that when carried out correctly utilises the flow lines of the semi-molten metal to provide far greater strength than can be provided by fabrication. Example here http://www.brooksforgings.co.uk/pro...0pgga-904PLaEm09o05sU9KlYyASjAbxoCKVUQAvD_BwE

A name I knew in this sector was Smethwick Drop Forgings at Kidderminster. I was at college with a man from there. I see they went out of business last year. At one time there were hundreds of companies like this in the Midlands, now sadly nearly all lost.
 
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