LadyInBed
Well-Known Member
That makes me feel a whole lot better.
Best rig and keel for most of your time under sail?
- Thread starter Greenheart
- Start date
That makes me feel a whole lot better.
DJE
Well-Known Member
It's the fact that we are very rarely in still water that makes assessing leeway so difficult. We are typically sailing in tides that run at about one third of our boat speed which means a difference between heading and COG of about 20 degrees. So the track on the plotter looks great when beating with the tide and terrible when beating against it.
I seem to remember somewhere that leeway in degrees equals true wind speed in knots divided three (or was it divided by two). Seems about as good a guess as any.
dunedin
Well-Known Member
Yes
johnalison
Well-Known Member
I wish I'd been given a pound for every person who had told me they sailed back across the North Sea against a F6/7. In my experience, it is almost impossible to make much way against the wind in open sea in anything over the top of F4. My HR34 has quite an efficient fractional rig and leaves most similar boats behind when beating in any wind, but in the open sea, it just doesn't work. Although we are quite close winded, most of my estimates are based on wishful thinking and although I like to think I am making 90 degree tacks I suspect it is usually more like 100.
LittleSister
Well-Known Member
Our boat is amazingly close winded (especially for a shoal draft long keeler with masthead rig and tired sails). I put it down to the lack of instruments to measure it precisely! 
(Schrodinger's VMG?)
Seems a bit odd to title a thread 'Best rig and keel for most of your time under sail', then ask how close winded is your boat. Important though windward ability is, even racers don't spend most of their time under sail close hauled.
Our boat has proved very capable and covered a lot more ground than most boats of its size (23'). Of course there have been times when I've wished we could point a bit higher, to make a headland without another tack, or avoid a longer trip in poor conditions, but they've been rare occasions, and never made me think we've got the wrong rig for our needs.
(Schrodinger's VMG?)Seems a bit odd to title a thread 'Best rig and keel for most of your time under sail', then ask how close winded is your boat. Important though windward ability is, even racers don't spend most of their time under sail close hauled.
Our boat has proved very capable and covered a lot more ground than most boats of its size (23'). Of course there have been times when I've wished we could point a bit higher, to make a headland without another tack, or avoid a longer trip in poor conditions, but they've been rare occasions, and never made me think we've got the wrong rig for our needs.
grumpy_o_g
Well-Known Member
The one thing that's apparent to me is that it's not whether she's a fin, bilge or lifting keel but how deep and narrow is the keel - a well-ballasted high aspect ratio twin keel with a good hull and rig performs well to windward and a shallow draft low aspect ratio tubby hulled fin keeler with a full rig and not much ballast doesn't. Quite a few multi-hulls go to windward well - I would be very wary of taking on a Catana or Outremer, never mind a Gunboat and don;t think about it with a Dragonfly. Even the Lagoons are better than you might expect but they really don't like tacking - the 440 I chartered once had to be sailed round very carefully and a chap with Lagoon 570 told me he used the engine to go about.
Greenheart
Well-Known Member
I was remembering some old sailing-book author writing that the majority of miles sailed, seem to be upwind (my hat is off if you have better luck than that)...
...but I reckon my liking for comfortable, old, compromised designs which dry-out upright, made me hope that these are better performers than is actually the case. The point in my title being, how many of us actually select a design which provides the fine sailing we all dream of doing, rather than just the comfort we (or our families) expect?
But, I suppose it's not very important, because few of us would wish to be at sea at all, in weather when the average 30ft sloop can't make useful progress to windward.
mrming
Well-Known Member
As a round the cans racer this statement doesn't make any sense. On the typical windward-leeward course you sail much further on the upwind leg and as such beating constitutes the majority of a race. On a long offshore race you can end up sailing downwind a lot, but it still varies. The Classe Mini boats are downwind planing machines but they still spent a large part of the first stage of this year's Mini Transat beating.
CAPTAIN FANTASTIC
Well-Known Member
I sail a heavy 70's twin keeler; trying to make it to go close to wind is the main challenge, however, it is an enjoyable challenge which requires to finely tune my sails, the results is that I can go, relatively, close to the wind and keep up with many modern boats, to their suprise, only because they do not bother tuning their sails.
However, the modern hull and sail design its so much more efficient and superior to the 70's, 80's and 90's designs; they tack quickly, close to the wind without loosing way, and they accelerate immediately after the tack. The ultimate aim is to get the best out of the boat design that you happen to sail on the day.
However, the modern hull and sail design its so much more efficient and superior to the 70's, 80's and 90's designs; they tack quickly, close to the wind without loosing way, and they accelerate immediately after the tack. The ultimate aim is to get the best out of the boat design that you happen to sail on the day.
Birdseye
Well-Known Member
It is a difficult issue . I race my boat and I changed from a good bilge keeler to a fin with a good rep as a sea boat, both of the 34/5 ft size and both early 90s build. I record the track of all our races on a garmin for analysis afterwards so I can actually see hard numbers of the progress we made, and since we sail round the same channel markers I can compare like with like. The difference in CMG to windward was about 10 degrees in a force 5. Almost no difference downwind and little difference in speed through the water on any course.
The biggest difference has been in heavy weather ability. Wit the fin I can keep going to windward in 40kn average. Bloody unpleasant and to be avoided if at all possible. But it is reassuring whereas in the bilge keeler it would either be a run off downwind or a rescue.
Greenheart
Well-Known Member
Thanks Birdseye. I reckon that's the point...there's not much chance I'd want to be exploring a boat's performance limits, in conditions when a bilge keeler began to struggle.
snowleopard
Well-Known Member
Your best bet is an Aero rig but they are hard to find since they are no longer made. Will match a 10% bigger rig upwind and romp away on a reach or run.
Neil
Well-Known Member
If they are so good, why are they no longer made? They look ugly, I know, but if they are better, many would put up with it. Expensive?
Twister_Ken
Well-Known Member
According to YW, Benny is just about to launch its version of the Aerorig.
http://www.yachtingworld.com/blogs/matthew-sheahan/536493/beneteau-s-wingsail
http://www.yachtingworld.com/blogs/matthew-sheahan/536493/beneteau-s-wingsail
snowleopard
Well-Known Member
They are no longer made because the company went bust. IIRC it was down to a bodged job that the management tried to cover up.
They were expensive certainly but they sailed so much better than a conventional rig. What prevented them taking off was conservatism. Because they look different some think they are ugly and unstayed masts scare people till they understand the physics. I'm very happy with mine (not an Aerorig but very similar).
DJE
Well-Known Member
If you are tacking through 120 degrees you are sailing at a TWA of 60 degrees on each tack. The relationship between TWA and AWA depends on AWA, boat speed and wind speed. the three variables make for a complex problem I have calculated two examples both for 6 knots boat speed and 15 knots true wind. For those conditions a boat making 45 degrees to the true wind (and therefore tacking through 90 degrees) will feel 20 knots of apparent wind at AWA of 35 degrees. If the boat is making 60 degrees to the true wind (and therefore tacking through 120 degrees) she will feel 19 knots of apparent wind at AWA of 44 degrees.
I am assuming that tacking angles are taken from the differences in the two compass headings with no allowance for leeway. Leeway will have some effect on the relationship between TWA and AWA too so strictly speaking there are 4 variables - not easy to plot on a graph!
westernman
Well-Known Member
The leeway is an extremely important part of the equation!
And it is not constant but depends on how close you are sailing to the wind, the wind strength, sail trim and how much your are heeling. A gaff rigged boat like mine and most cruising boats will make optimum speed to windward (i.e. VMG to a windward waypoint) at slightly more than the minimum tacking angle, and at less than the tacking angle which gives the best speed through the water.
What is interesting is your real tacking angle over ground. This tacking angle is actually larger if your compass tacking angle is the smallest and will actually decrease if you crack off a few degrees as the leeway will decrease. That is the difficult bit of sailing a gaffer to windward fast - as it is hard to read the optimum angle from the tell tales and the sails. You can be sailing really close to the wind and going sideways through the water due to leeway, or you can easily be a few degrees too far off and giving up a lot of potential VMG although you are cracking on through the water.
In calm seas and moderate winds my optimum tacking angle over ground is 120 degrees. This means that my real VMG is 1/2 my speed through the water.
Most cruising boats are around this. Note that your tacking angle on the compass is less by the amount of leeway.
Rivers & creeks
Well-Known Member
That Beneteau looks really interesting. We came within a whisker of buying a Freedom Cat Ketch but issues with the cored hull below the waterline put us off. Rig design has come a long way since the square rigger and I suspect it's about to take a big leap forward in the leisure market.
snowleopard
Well-Known Member
What issues? And what type of core material? Balsa would be a disaster but PVC foam is fine above or below w/l.
There are quite a few unusual rig types around that are more efficient and/or easier to handle than a sloop with overlapping genoa but they'll never be more than minority interests because sailors are innately conservative or are afraid the resale value will be low. As a result those of us prepared to be different will happily leave the herd behind