Best rig and keel for most of your time under sail?

" Best rig and keel for most of your time under sail? "


Of course there is no such thing, that's why there are so many rows about it.

The Americans do this kind of thing very well:

http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?CLASS_ID=4651

Shallow enough for continental canals, dry out ok with a pair of short legs, board for going upwind.

......of course the board would clank, get bunged up and be difficult to maintain. Still I have always fancied one.

They are pretty as well and were developed into the Dockrell 37, which seemed not quite so pretty, heigh ho.
 
flaming said:
Quite. I knew this thread would be fun!

For reference we (deep keel Elan 37 with carbon sails and a full crew) have upwind targets of 7.2 knots at 42 degrees TWA.

And we regard second at the windward mark to be a failure. It's a VERY good upwind boat.
Click to expand...

It's not just me then. I was wondering why my reasonably racy boat didn't point as well as all these cruisers. ;-)
 
I tack through 95 degrees in reasonably flat conditions. A bit more if it is choppy. Over ground taking into account leeway and surface water drift I am tacking through 110 degrees in flat conditions, 120 degrees if there is a bit of chop. This is about the same as you will get in your average Bavaria with average sails.

It takes a fair bit of concentration to keep a good VMG to windward. It is too easy to head up to far (looks good on the compass), when the leeway will become excessive and really hurt the VMG. It is also very easy to crack off a bit too much as well. The leeway will be less, the speed will be better, but you are going in the wrong direction!

I can sail closer to the wind than 47.5 degrees, but speed goes down, leeway goes up and VMG goes down a lot.

In F7 or more when going to windward I need a reef. In F8 I need two reefs and the smaller head sails. In these conditions with the biggish waves we get round Cap Bear, VMG is depressing - just 1.5 to 2 knots. It is wet, I have waves coming over the bow and running down the deck, the lee deck is in the water and it is hard work for a long time to get anywhere.

However, in F8 with all the sails stowed and the motor at full throttle heading into the wind VMG is even worse!

120 degrees means your VMG is 1/2 your speed through the water.
 
Last edited:
Ketch rigged, long keel and heavy displacement - going close to the wind means either we're late or I misread the forecast.
 
44ft moderately heavy fin and skeg ketch. 7'2" draft lead keel. We make typically 35deg AWA and she feels in the groove. At 30 degrees AWA she feels too close and slow up too much. She is comfortable to windward if you can stand the typical 25 degrees of heel. She is initially tender then the 6ton of lead in keel does its bit. The deep draft has its issues. I am not sure we would enjoy the Bahamas! Life is full of compromise.
 
Thanks for all these replies, very detailed and interesting, please keep 'em coming. I get the feeling everyone is happy to be honest about his boat's performance, because if it's not the last word in speed and pointing, it makes up for that in other ways. :encouragement:
 
mrming said:
It's not just me then. I was wondering why my reasonably racy boat didn't point as well as all these cruisers. ;-)
Click to expand...

My lifting keel, fractional rigged, Evolution 26 with second and third hand sails, some modified on the lounge floor with the wifes sewing machine, will make 45 degrees with very little leeway, at 5.5knts in 15 knots apparent wind.

The First 27 which we race hard against week in week out is bulbed fin keel, mast head rigged and has newish dacron sails, that points 3 or 4 degrees higher than us will carry a number 1 Genoa in 15knts and does probably 5.4 knts. The result is that we are very closely matched to windward despite the vastly different designs of boat.
 
The delta between AWA and TWA?

Seems to me that those claiming very close angles to the wind are measuring apparent wind - whereas those in the forty something degrees are measuring against true wind. Can anyone offer accurate examples of typical deltas between the two measurements?

I don't have anything to measure true wind with, but the difference in compass heading between tacks is normally in the region of 80 to 90 degrees (but we'd be tacking through less than that according to the apparent wind).

Leeway depends on sea conditions.

Sadler 32 - shallow fin
 
I must be particularly **** at sailing my old tub. Once upon a time she had quite a rep as a racer. wont keep up with a modern light weight. But still considered competitive by local clubs.
I figure 45 deg full and by. Might be able to pinch a few more especially with a lift.
I tack through 90 deg.
Happy to sail to wind she will pick up her skirts and go. 6.5 kn ocasionaly seen 7 indicated. Deck edge just above water.
I’m not a racer or a sail trim tweaker. I tend to be short handed.

The big laminate is in the garage. No 2 under the bunk in the fore cabin and the furling sail is on the fore stay. Full sail up to F4 Getting overpowered in gusts at a sustained F5

She continues to point well with the first reef. I tend to avoid furling if I can. She wont point as well once I start to furl.

She does point well if I take the furling sail of and use my no 2.

I find her quite comfortable for cruising.
 
Uricanejack said:
She continues to point well with the first reef. I tend to avoid furling if I can. She won't point as well once I start to furl. She does point well if I take the furling sail off and use my no 2.
Click to expand...

That's interesting - I'd quite forgotten that there are points, literally, in dispensing with a roller-headsail. I wonder how many performance-elements have been dropped or neglected over the decades, as we discovered easier or more convenient but less-efficient alternatives to traditional systems and design?

I remember reading in those Time-Life sailing books from the 1980s, that racers of the pre-J-class era might have had gaff rig, but were so long, deep and slender that they could make to windward in almost anything...

...I wonder if the modern preference for lightweight planing racers with broad stern sections, has held sway over the long and narrow forms, in spite of the older boats' superiority to windward?

Or are the modern offshore racers just as good upwind, despite being so much flatter and beamier?
 
dancrane said:
That's interesting - I'd quite forgotten that there are points, literally, in dispensing with a roller-headsail. I wonder how many performance-elements have been dropped or neglected over the decades, as we discovered easier or more convenient but less-efficient alternatives to traditional systems and design?
Click to expand...

That is one of the reasons I have a cutter with a slab reefing main. It goes to windward well in the typical 15 to 25 knots because I never have to use a partially reefed genoa. Staysail with full main then reefing the main. Mind you drawing 10 ft with the board down helps as well.
 
Last edited:
James_Calvert said:
Seems to me that those claiming very close angles to the wind are measuring apparent wind - whereas those in the forty something degrees are measuring against true wind. Can anyone offer accurate examples of typical deltas between the two measurements?

I don't have anything to measure true wind with, but the difference in compass heading between tacks is normally in the region of 80 to 90 degrees (but we'd be tacking through less than that according to the apparent wind).

Leeway depends on sea conditions.

Sadler 32 - shallow fin
Click to expand...

The really interesting figure is the difference in course over ground between two tacks. I.e. taking leeway into count.

This is what I try to optimize - and in my case there is a big difference between optimizing that angle and optimizing the tacking angle on the compass.

AWA is kind of irrelevant.
 
20ft waterline length, gaff cutter, long keel (not particularly deep). 4.3kn at 95 tacking angle from compass. Flat(ish) water. No real change when wind increases. Rather not talk about leeway
 
doug748 said:
That's the one that is easy to obtain by peering at the plotter. It's unambiguous, like all plodders, at sea, I am happy to tack through 90deg.
Click to expand...

Very few AWBs or cruising boats will tack through 90 degrees Course Over Ground in still water. More like 110-120 degrees. Many manage 90 degrees on the compass though - but even then most of those will do a better VMG to windward if cracked off a couple of degrees from that.

This is my experience on Bendy toys, Bavarias etc with average sails. Of course if your boat has a very deep fin keel, a high aspect rig and a new set of laminates you will do better.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page

Top