Beneteau, Jen, Bav

Re: Opposite advice

I would modify my original statement to say "or buy a tidy older boat that has a clearly defined purpose which still attracts the modern buyer".
E.g. A Francis 26, Westerly Corsair or Cornish Shrimper.

Which are all somewhat smaller than what Moose is looking for. So can I add; any of the Rivals (choose length to suit), the bigger Westerlys, mid-size Moodys, Dehlers, ETAPs, Rustler 36, older - but tarted - baby Swans, older Oysters like the Lightwave and Heritage, Dutch stuff like the Contest, etc.

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Re: Hull shapes, and other ramblings

as for the Open60 - the equally important reason for the extreme beam, is that the narrow (forgive the pun) minded Open rule restricts the static angle of heel that the boats may have with the keel canted. As a result they need massive form stability to resist the canted keel when at rest. If they didnt have the static angle test, they would be narrower, as is evidenced by Morning Glory and Pyewacket (the new Z86's), which have narrow waterplanes.

This shortsighted rule has generated boats that are almost equally stable invertes, and as a result now have to prove their self right credentials - here we have a classic example of a type forming rule that ultimately yields bad tempered boats - this is not uncommon - we can go back to Edwardian Dods head/mackerel tail, then plank on edge, fast forward to 1980's IOR with all the distortions and horrible downwind handling, complete with trim tab mains and genny's that were oversized (as the excess size wasnt measured) and so on.

My biggest gripe about modern designs is that they yield boats with very short rollperiods, and equally short pitching. This makes the boat's tiring to sail in a seaway - irrespective of their sailing habits. A well behaved boat wont throw your tea or coffee (nor indeed a G&T) around!

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Re: Hull shapes, and other ramblings

Has anybody thought of asking Moose where he intends to cruise in his new yacht, that will answer the question. Any Ben/Jan/Bav will take pretty much anything you chuck at it Cross-Channel/Biscay/Med.

Having sailed 'classic' yachts all my life until Neraida, I can honestly say that a Lloyds 100 A1 wooden yacht gives you tremendous confidence in VERY heavy weather but is somewhat tiresome when you need a F5 to get a move on.

If Moose is planning a circumnavigation I would suggest as I already have, the larger Ovni's or one of the favoured boats of Bluewater cruisers.
For more luxury and seaworthiness the large new style Moody, larger Rassey's (42 plus) or a 10 year old Oyster Lightwave would be my choice, given the budget but I wouldn't kick any Benny or Dufour of that size out of bed for farting......

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Re: Professional Help

Thanks for that Brendan - I've just spoken with the other partners and we can knock a tenner off the price of the rudder as a gesture of appreciation of the good publicity you have given us.
Keep up the good work - and would you be OK about taking Moose out for a spin in the mirror?

<hr width=100% size=1>regards
Claymore
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Re: Professional Help

Och I thocht the ridder wisnae deklivered until Yr 3? Terms were that sailing by balancing the sails wiz an essential apprenticeship in the august craft? Fae whit a remember a spinnaker & sheet wiz the YR 2 delivery together with a bailing out bucket in lieu of a liferaft?

<hr width=100% size=1>I Have The Body Of A God... Buddha
 
Re: Professional Help

More than delighted to take another convert out. He can even have a go at rowing - it will be good for him - since I started I have found I have regained the youth and vigour of my 20's, though SWMBO is complaining that the once a month nookie no longer seems adequate for me, and I keep pestering her for more. This has increased my boating expenses considerably as Neurofen is quite expensive, and I'm looking for a wholesale supplier.

<hr width=100% size=1>Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabris, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam.
 
PBO comments on Bennies

Current Piractical Stoat Boner tests 2 new Bennies.

From memory the faults are:

Mainsheet doesn't work
Rigging slack
Underpowered with standard sails
Dodgy bilge drainage
Bodgy electrics panel
Sea-cocks look dubious to work on
Main electrics vulnerable to wet gear in cockpit locker
Unsealed end-grain on floorboards, etc.
Engine access difficult because of moulded companionway step
Main battery switches close to bilgewater



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Re: PBO comments on Bennies

Engine access difficult because of moulded companionway step

Out of interest, if someone is working on the engine on a modern designed boat, does this cut off access from saloon to cockpit unless monkey net is temporarily fitted.

Seems a bit dangerous to me?


<hr width=100% size=1>Julian

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Engine access

Yes, almost all aft cockpit boats of 'modest' size have engines under the cockpit floor, with access to the front of the engine by lifting or removing all or part of the companionway steps.

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Wheras I agree the general comments you make I must take issue on the following :

<< the '79 fastnet showed no correlation between the 'Type' of boat (bear in mind that modern racing boats have the wide flat bottomed hulls) and wether they capsised or were rolled.>>

I believe and speaking from memory that the enquiry came out very strongly in favour of narrower boats with balanced ends as having come through more safely than the wider speed machines. Good notes for the Contessa 32 and criticisms for the OOD 34.

John



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True but this played a huge factor in change of design to racing yachts as the major issue was the PVS and the RORC stipulate for some time that any yachts racing offshore must meet the new design requirements.

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>>> I believe and speaking from memory that the enquiry came out very strongly in favour of narrower boats with balanced ends as having come through more safely than the wider speed machines. Good notes for the Contessa 32 and criticisms for the OOD 34.

... and that the top Admiral's Cupper in that race was Eclipse skippered by Jeremy Rogers, builder of both the CO32 and the OOD34, in an overgrown OOD-34.

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True, but I think that the 'disaster cycle' theory is in operation here. A lot of contemporary yachts are worse (in terms of Angle of vanishing stability) than the then maligned OOD34.

What I think has changed more is attitude, forecasting and communication. Most people would have turned back if they had prior knowledge of what was coming - and there would not have been anything like as much loss of life.

<hr width=100% size=1>my opinion is complete rubbish, probably.
 
From the History of the OOD 34

"The Offshore One-Design 34 is a one-design class ... intended for racing over inshore and offshore courses and so to be fully seaworthy and able to meet severe conditions in the open sea in the course of racing.

Unfortunately, the ability to deal with severe conditions in the open sea was severely tested during the infamous 1979 Fastnet race when a number of OOD 34s were rolled over and one was lost."

From Peter Johnson’s obit :

"Innovation was an OOD 34, the largest design chosen, and utilised new closed-mould glassfibre technology, though it never really recovered from the 1979 Fastnet race, in which the type was badly affected by storms"

John


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All of which is very important if you are doing a Fastnet, but not if you are doing what most of us use our boats for - pottering and the annual cruise.

The reality of life, Moose, is that there is some difference between the most expensive and the cheapest boat, between the Swedes and the French, but a lot less than the price or general prejudice would have you believe. Do V**0 make 2 standards of engine? Do the resin makers make 2 qualities of resin? No, of course they dont. And that applies to many, but not all, of the components that go into a cruiser.

So if you compare 2 cruisers, say a 36 ft Benbav at 70k and a 36 ft Najo at 170k you will ask yourself what you get for the extra £100k. Well, you will get a better level of finish beyond doubt. You will get some extra kit in the Swedish boat. And, prejudice being what it is, you will get a better re-sale value. But I doubt that you will be any safer - the biggest risk in sailing is you not the boat. The hull mouldings are likely to be at least as good in the cheaper though since they have volume and mechanisation to help them - anything produced by machine is almost always better quality than the handmade equivalent. But without doubt, much of your 100k extra will be eaten up in low volume economics both of production and raw material cost.

But sailboats are not rational purchases - any accountant will advise you to charter not buy. But you want to buy for pride of ownership, perhaps because you think its beautiful, for something to fiddle with, perhaps even because you fancy yourself as a long term deep sea sailor. So pay a bit of notice to the specs try a charter on what you fancy, and in the end, go with what grabs you. As far as I can see, there are few if any bad boats these days.

<hr width=100% size=1>this post is a personal opinion, and you should not base your actions on it.
 
Eclipse by the way was designed by Doug Peterson, later he also designed our Jeanneau Sun Legende 41, the original of which was a French Admirals Cupper. Not extreme, very balanced upwind and downwind, but then she was built around 15 years back after which according to some design went downhill. The same people probably drive MGBs or frogeye Sprites......

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