Beneteau, Jen, Bav

[Moose]

I have been told that these three makes are perhaps not up to much apart from sitting at anchor in the Sunshine. What is the general consensus, are they good seaboats? I have looked at a few HR's on the net but I don't fancy a 1990 boat when I can get a New Ben,Jen or Bav that is getting on for 6ft bigger!
I am going to the Ancasta "lets show off all our unsold boats show" at the weekend and will be looking round some Ben, Jen, Bav yachts, what should I look for? Is Roller Reefing usually standard?

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[Robin]

You need to decide what YOU require of the boat and chose a design (note design not make) that fits the purpose. If there is a suitable design in the Ben/Jen Bav camp then go for it, they are mass produced and there is nothing wrong with that either.

What are your plans for this boat, is it intended for local cruising plus the annual cruise, or is it for longer term live aboard in the Med, over the pond or round the world? Will you only day cruise between marinas or spend longer periods at sea? Are you looking for real performance (maybe a cruiser/racer), OK performance (straight cruiser) or a motor sailor? Help us to help you!

Most modern boats will have roller reefing headsails and many will have in-mast reefing mainsails as standard or as a standard option. In-mast mains have advantages (ease of use) and disadvantages (loss of performance, risk of a jam), some swear by them others like me prefer cockpit controlled slab reefing and a fully battened sail for better performance.



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[claymore]

Professional Help

Moose this is a big step and not one which you want to make a mistake on.
Might I draw your attention to the services of our company, Hookem, Bookem and Fullerton who are most experienced in helping prospective entrants into the noble sport. Our Consultants P.Handy, J.Imi & myself, C.Laymore will be only too pleased to be of assistance to you, saving you vast sums and ensuring that the choices you make are the correct ones - for a consideration which I am sure you will find most acceptable.
An affirmative response to this correspondence will enable the process to be commenced and our Solicitors, Hunt, Lunt and Cunninham will be in touch to discuss the terms of our contract.
Yours in Eager Anticipation
etc.

<hr width=100% size=1>regards
Claymore
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[BrendanS]

Re: Professional Help

Moose+,

I can thoroughly recommend the services of this august company. When I wished to start sailing, they provided me with every assistance, and obtained for me a vessel, which not quite meeting my requirements for a 40' with every electronic aid imaginable, pointed out that a mirror dinghy is an admirable craft in which to gain experience, and have provided me with an ugrade plan of about 2' per year for the next 13 years. Although I did have my doubts about paying £100,000 for a 20 year old vessel, I was finally persuaded by the brokerage and administration costs of only a nominal £1 which I considered eminently reasonable for the service provided.

Once I have become used to rowing the mirror dinghy around the harbour, they have promised to provide sails and rigging next year, and possibly even a rudder! though these seem a tad expensive at something like a total of £50,000. As a stinkie however, it is nice to have the guidance of experience raggies to prevent me making any dire mistakes.

<hr width=100% size=1>Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabris, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam.

 

[Neraida]

I'm quite impressed with Beneteau's, they sail very well, are usually well built and offer something for everybody for reasonable money v size. The Oceanis range are forgiving to sail and good sea boats where as the Firsts are fast and not so forgiving but nonetheless very good boats

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.ybw.com/cgi-bin/forums/postlist.pl?Cat=&Board=wanted>Stuff Wanted </A><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by Neraida on 13/05/2004 23:52 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[Sybarite]

Moose - go to the top of the page "Buying a boat" and enter "sail" "used" Bénéteau 13 - 14 metres. You have a choice of 374 boats. A lot of Oceanis which are probably retired charter boats but also an Idylle 13m50 ( German Frers design and rarely used for charter) at under £40k. OK you may have to pay VAT on top so it's still under £50k for a 44' Frers designed boat !

http://ybw.yachtworld.com/core/uk/l...&units=Meters&checked_boats=1183314&&ybw=true

John

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[Doug_Stormforce]

Moose

Have seen your recent posts,

All three of these makes are mass produced production boats, pound for pound they are all cheap for their size. Not really comparable with motor boats where their are only 4 big makes.

Despite what anyone tells you they will all handle a gale and whatever else the English Channel throws at them however, frustrating little things will break easily and annoy you. Perhaps we should compare them with Ford cars, they do the job, are good value and are pretty common but there are some far more comfortable, better built, faster and more expensive cars around.

I spend much of my professional life aboard bens and bavs and am quite happy racing, coastal sailing or offshore with them.

I think what it comes down to is, how much use are you going to get out of this boat and what do you want from it?

Good to see someone taking the step from power to sail, Good Luck and May the Force be with you.

If you want some more specific advice give me a call or email, number is on the website.

Regards
Doug


<hr width=100% size=1>For RYA Courses, click
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[Rich_F]

Hi Moose,

If you're a bit uncertain about how you'll be using your boat, it's highly possible that you'll want to change it within a couple of years, as you realize what your priorities are.

Therefore, I'd consider getting a boat which won't depreciate quickly and you can easily resell. A second hand HR/Najad/Malo would be a better bet than a new BenJenBav, in my opinion.

Rich

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[Twister_Ken]

Hull shapes, and other ramblings

Once upon a time hull shapes were eleptical, narrow, deep (and heavy) keeled, and narrow ended. They heeled easily until a certain point, after which they heeled no more because the lead got to work, sailed upwind like witches, rolled like drunks downwind, and provided - shall we call it - close fitting accomodation. By and large they could survive just about anything if they were sensibly handled.

And then boat manufacturing plants realised that boats like those didn't appeal to Mom, Pop and 2.4, and started to increase beam in relation to length, to make the accomodation more spacious and allow room for leg stretching. Once they'd increased the beam, they realised that the boats heeled less, because as they heeled they tried to press more beam into the water, which resisted (so-called 'form stability'.) "Ah ha," they thought, "in that case we can save some money on lead", and so keels became shallower and lighter.

And then along came flotilla charter. The flotilla operators wanted boats which provided plently of cockpit room, which meant taking the boat's beam further aft. This provided huge cockpit lockers, too big to use, and so the manufacturers started putting so-called aft cabins under the cockpit. These design trends have continued, so that a modern boat is shaped more like a triangle than an elongated egg when seen in plan form. This allows room for 17 people to sleep on a 36 footer, as along as they don't bring luggage, two heads with showers, a jacuzzi and a combined microwave/fridge/washing and expresso machine. On deck, rigs have grown smaller (because there is less keel to hold them up when it really blows), the mainsheet has moved out of the cockpit so as not to compromise sunbathing space (and ruined sail handling into the bargain) ands roller furling blinds have replaced genoas, and increasingly mainsails.

The masters of building boats of this sort are Messrs Benjenbav, and being serious for a moment, these are boats that are optimised for warm weather, day sailing charter. Which is perfect if that's what you want to do. If your ambitions are a tad more Francis Chiohester, long passages, small crews, whatever the weather brings, you'd be better off looking for a boat which retains some of the old-fashioned virtues - a bit narrower, a bit deeper, fewer berths, more stowage, a ballast ration (weight of keel:weight of boat) of 40% or so, all sail controls near the helm, beefier fittings, heavier rigging.

A generalisation I know, but an older boat of this sort is likely to have originally cost 2 or 3 times the equivalent of a Benjenbav of the same era, and is now likely to be worth x1.5 the cost of a new Benjenbav. At the same time it will have had loving owners spending money on extra kit, which would cost you squillions to put on a new boat, so the total cost of acquisition won't be very diferent. If the older boat has been well looked after it's condition will be close to 'as new.'

So, go figure which is best for you.


(BTW there is another sensible alternative, which is to buy an older boat of almost any sort, where your acknowledged objective is to sail it around for a season or three to find out what the boat of your dreams really should offer, and then buy said BOYD closer to the end of the decade.)

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[Beagle]

Bennies, Jennies and Bavs, and how about a Duf?

Don't know what the market is in the UK but in Holland Dufours are within the same range (and price) as the aforementioned yachts. All mass produced, meaning value for money. Scandinavian yachts are more solid and perhaps the first choice for many experienced raggies, however way out of reach (budget wise) for many people. This year we decided to go for the Dufour 32 classic. Budget wise the same, but we prefer the lines, quality and performance about the Jens/Bens. First question should always be, what is the avarage use of the new boat, is it daily based or for regular ocean crossing??? Best way to find out what suits you best is to rent a couple of these models for a weekend in the off-season. Never heard of the company Hookem, Bookem and Skinnem but they do sound like they know their business.......
Rene.

<hr width=100% size=1>Never under estimate the strength of human stupidity

 

[tcm]

hi. They are ok.

The "no thanks benjenbav" argument essentially runs that they are not built for a sturdy life and comfy ride in all weathers. This does not mean that they will sink, and lots go round the world. And of course, by "all weathers" i mean the sort of weather than would faze a powerboat - tho remeber that for longer passages like 12 hours cross channel you are less able to sneak acroos in the right weather - the weather turns up faster than you sail, so you/the boat have to deal wiv more extremes of weather given the same trip.

The sailboat market is extremely extremely competeive - probly more so than powerboats where there's a fair bit of fluff from medallion men. Hence some bits are less fab than they should be - bilge pumps often crappo and so on.

Also, as ken says, the shape of the productioon boats are designed to get a lot of people innem, so flat and wide is the order of the day. Only at the higher end of bennys and jenneau is there enough loot to make it all a bit more decent eg jeanneau 54 and benny 57.

I belive that aournd 50 foot, the scale of finesse and fineness would run bav, jen/ben, naijad/halberg-rassy, nordia. Praps others can correct or ad to this, or of course shoot it down in flames.



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[sonic]

Moose
If you are going to buy a yacht take your time have a look at what is on the market. Once you have decided the make and model work out the average asking price of that particular model refering to all the private and brokerage boats. This will give you an approximate value for your purchase. There is a certain amount of leeway as the specifications will vary between yachts. If you can find someone who is giving up sailing you normally get a better deal and a lot more equipment for you cash. If you have the time charter a similar yacht for a weekend or longer if possible and find out if you really like it. No point in buying a yacht to discover you dont like it in the long term. Best of Luck anyway and Fair winds

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[ParaHandy]

Increasing beam of mom & pop ...

well ... speak for yourself ..... !! not all owners are quite as corpulent as you erm suggest though somebody did mention that i was somewhat more slender than a typical benny owner .........

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[jonjo]

Re: Hull shapes, and other ramblings

Moose, Ken's synopsis of yacht design tends is informative but do not conclude this means yachts were ok up to 15 years ago and then it all went wrong.

The changes in yacht design referred to started 30 years ago, look at the venerable Westerly Centaur for evidence.

Ken, if any deviation from the elongated egg shape is purely driven but charter requirements could you explain why single handed round the world racing yachts also exemplify the triangular yacht shape?

> an older boat of this sort ... At the same time it will have had loving
> owners spending money on extra kit

The state of 90% of older yachts on the market completely contradicts the above statement, in fact it makes me angry that anyone could offer such financially dangerous advice to a prospective entrant to yachting.

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[AlexL]

Howdy

You will attract a lot of answers about how narrow, long keeled, heavy ballasted boats are best, and how you shouldn't even go out of a pond in anything less. However, despite the "traditional" (to whom?!) design apparently being so good, all the British manufacturers who used to make them went Bankrupt. Hmmm. They were making the right boats, but the customers bought the wrong ones maybe?

However look at the website for the ARC and other blue water rallies, Ben, Jen and Bav are by far the most represented makes, followed by HR and the like (oh yes and Oyster - but forget that unless youve got a mil or two!).

The most sensible comment, which has already been made, is that whichever boat you buy will probably be the wrong one! and after a couple of years with a boat you will have a long list of very acurate requirements for your next boat , the other piece of advice given to me last year when i bought my boat is by the boat for the sailing you will do now, not for the sailing you want to do in 5 years, as it may frustrate you now, and make sure you can sell the boat in 3-5 years as you will probably be ready to move in that sort of timescale.

With regard to the argument about safety and seaworthiness, although some arguments seem logical, most research and most accidents have indicated that the deciding factor is really luck. The 98 Sydney-Hobart and the '79 fastnet showed no correlation between the 'Type' of boat (bear in mind that modern racing boats have the wide flat bottomed hulls) and wether they capsised or were rolled. The bottom line is that if you get hit on the beam by a breaking wave, it makes no difference what "design" of boat you are in, only the length has any effect and that is marginal within reason (i.e there is a difference between a 20ft and a 50ft boat, but not much between a 40ft and 50ft). See "Heavy Weather Sailing" by Adlard Coles for all the nerdy maths and reaserch.

Personally I would look at a nearly new Ben, Jen Bav - a one year old boat will cost about the same or a bit less than a new one, but probably have 20 grands worth of extra bits on it.
If I had unlimited money I would buy a new or newish Hallberg or Najad. But for a given budget I would only get a much shorter, older Najad for the same money as a Jen.

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[jonjo]

Re: Opposite advice

> it's highly possible that you'll want to change it within a couple of years

> A second hand HR/Najad/Malo would be a better bet

I agree with your first statement but for this very reason Moose should buy something slap bang in the middle of the mass market.

The second hand market for an HR or Malo is tiny compared BenJenBav, and is so small that when a decision is made to sell there might not be enough buyers out there to create a meaningful market.

At 20+ years of age the gloss goes off HRs as well and they can sit on the market forever while their teak decks continue to weather away.

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[jonjo]

Re: Well said.

Well said.

I also recommend that Moose reads a copy of the World Cruising Survey written by the founder of the ARC. Two of his observations have registered in my brain.

1 - A common sources of dissatisfaction expressed by owners of traditional yacht designs was a lack of sail area to drive the yacht in typical wind conditions.

2 - Quality and design problems were more prevalent in yachts purchased from minority specialist manufacturers. Now, this is not an argument against buying an HR but it does seem to be a vote in favour of buying a Beneteau.

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[Rich_F]

Re: Opposite advice

I disagree. Getting a boat of which there are hundreds of examples always on the market can't possibly make selling easy. There's always going to be masses of competition.

Also, I was speaking to a dealer a couple of weeks ago. He was happy to take a Swedish boat in part-ex, because they are easy to shift, whereas he wouldn't touch one of the mass produced boats.

But I've never sold either sort of boat, so I can't pretend to be authoritative on this point.

Rich

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[jonjo]

Re: Opposite advice

> so I can't pretend to be authoritative on this point

No can I but I have studied the market as buyer for 3 years and some trends have become evident to me. I have also spoken to lots of brokers and some surveyors.

I would modify my original statement to say "or buy a tidy older boat that has a clearly defined purpose which still attracts the modern buyer".

E.g. A Francis 26, Westerly Corsair or Cornish Shrimper.

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[Twister_Ken]

Re: Hull shapes, and other ramblings

Ken, if any deviation from the elongated egg shape is purely driven but charter requirements could you explain why single handed round the world racing yachts also exemplify the triangular yacht shape?

Because they go b. fast in offwind conditions, which is what their on-shore weather routers look for, and because they are sailed by athletes, not by clapped-out old geezers like me. They are also damned uncomfortable. Make that were damned uncomfortable, it's been a while since I sailed on anything like that. BTW, they also keep all the weight out of the ends, which your average fat-arsed family cruiser doesn't.

The state of 90% of older yachts on the market completely contradicts the above statement, in fact it makes me angry that anyone could offer such financially dangerous advice to a prospective entrant to yachting.

You obviously need to perfect the art of shopping around - not a joyous art I'll happily admit given the lack of ethics in the brokerage business, happy to describe some old swamp of a boat as being in pristine condition.


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