Rigger Mortice
N/A
Good rant but making an engineering decision based on a couple of photo's is probably a little less thorough than an MAIB investigation is likely to be. Good rant though.
Beneteau First lost her keel, four good men lost at sea.
- Thread starter haydude
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Good rant but making an engineering decision based on a couple of photo's is probably a little less thorough than an MAIB investigation is likely to be. Good rant though.
snooks
Well-Known Member
Categories mean very little. It's more about the person and their mentality and preparation than the boat. Take a well found boat, neglect it, don't service the engine, replace filters, look after the sail etc and she'll be more of a death trap than many smaller "unsuitable" boats properly prepared.
As for bolt on keels...they have been bolting on keels for over 100 years, how do you think the lead on wooden boats stays attached? Sikafex?
Only the surface area and the bolt thickness and material has really changed.
The problem is that no one, and I mean no one, really knows the full history of the keel. It's gone out with charterers and any number of them could have grounded her at speed, by accident or dried out badly. There is simply no way of knowing what has happened to this boat, so blaming the mfg or design might not be just barking up the wrong tree but barking in a completely different forest!
I would hazard a guess that there are many ex-charterers (and their crews) of CR who are now feeling very guilty for not fessing up for fear of losing their security deposit. Did they have the grounding that ultimately led to the loss of CRs yacht? Probably not, but they will never know for sure.
So what is the solution? A strip of plasticine on the base of the keel - like the toe board of the long jump? Totally impractical but there must be a way. AIS is probably favourite, but inspecting every route and the state of the tide would be a thankless and time consuming task.
So instead of blaming the keel, let's look at ways of preventing a boat being grounded without visible signs it's happened.
As for bolt on keels...they have been bolting on keels for over 100 years, how do you think the lead on wooden boats stays attached? Sikafex?
Only the surface area and the bolt thickness and material has really changed.
The problem is that no one, and I mean no one, really knows the full history of the keel. It's gone out with charterers and any number of them could have grounded her at speed, by accident or dried out badly. There is simply no way of knowing what has happened to this boat, so blaming the mfg or design might not be just barking up the wrong tree but barking in a completely different forest!
I would hazard a guess that there are many ex-charterers (and their crews) of CR who are now feeling very guilty for not fessing up for fear of losing their security deposit. Did they have the grounding that ultimately led to the loss of CRs yacht? Probably not, but they will never know for sure.
So what is the solution? A strip of plasticine on the base of the keel - like the toe board of the long jump? Totally impractical but there must be a way. AIS is probably favourite, but inspecting every route and the state of the tide would be a thankless and time consuming task.
So instead of blaming the keel, let's look at ways of preventing a boat being grounded without visible signs it's happened.
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TimBennet
Well-Known Member
The people who were on the various committees that drafted the RCD are a matter of public record. They are all well regarded academics or design professionals and I would be far less cavalier than you about suggesting that their integrity was compromised by the influence of the French manufacturers.
But to try and decipher your muddled argument; Which part of the RCD does 'your friend' say was nobbled by the French manufacturers? The stability requirements? The scantlings and strength? Equipment? On what grounds did these 'makers of long distance boats' challenge the proposed requirements? The consultation period was extremely long and all submissions were public, so how was it possible they 'never got a response? Did they go to any of the conferences organised by RINA or other bodies and were 'gagged' by some shadowy figures from the French underworld? I certainly don't remember any howls of protest from the upmarket manufacturers.
Talulah
Well-Known Member
Equally there are a number of boats who's owners were only able to get repair/replacement after they signed a non-disclosure agreement.
emnick
Well-Known Member
Categories mean very little. It's more about the person and their mentality and preparation than the boat. Take a well found boat, neglect it, don't service the engine, replace filters, look after the sail etc and she'll be more of a death trap than many smaller "unsuitable" boats properly prepared.
As for bolt on keels...they have been bolting on keels for over 100 years, how do you think the lead on wooden boats stays attached? Sikafex?
Only the surface area and the bolt thickness and material has really changed.
The problem is that no one, and I mean no one, really knows the full history of the keel. It's gone out with charterers and any number of them could have grounded her at speed, by accident or dried out badly. There is simply no way of knowing what has happened to this boat, so blaming the mfg or design might not be just barking up the wrong tree but barking in a completely different forest!
I would hazard a guess that there are many ex-charterers (and their crews) of CR who are now feeling very guilty for not fessing up for fear of losing their security deposit. Did they have the grounding that ultimately led to the loss of CRs yacht? Probably not, but they will never know for sure.
So what is the solution? A strip of plasticine on the base of the keel - like the toe board of the long jump? Totally impractical but there must be a way. AIS is probably favourite, but inspecting every route and the state of the tide would be a thankless and time consuming task.
So instead of blaming the keel, let's look at ways of preventing a boat being grounded without visible signs it's happened.
+1
One of the Southerly selling points is that there is some 'give' if you hit anything or what about an energy absorbing replaceable crumple zone.
30boat
N/A
That is actually a very good idea,It wouldn't have to be very large,just a hollow at the bottom front of the keel filled with an easily deformable material.
bedouin
Well-Known Member
You mean like lead?
lustyd
Well-Known Member
Oh that is clearly the case, my point being that this particular case features a yacht found in under two days due to electronic equipment and your post specifically called out the expectation that electronics mean you'll be found quickly. The yacht was found very quickly indeed, and due to the circumstances of the disaster nobody was there to be rescued. We can only assume that staying with the yacht was untenable in this situation due to the weather, or that crew perished inside possibly due to safety equipment preventing them leaving such as auto inflate life jackets.
While your post was sensible, very few of us (and I assume you're included in this) have experienced what happened to this crew and so suggesting you'd be somehow better prepared is basically nonsense until you know the full story. The crew may very well still be in survival suits. Their food may be floating nearby. The thing I find most absurd on this thread is the implication that no long keeler has ever sunk mid ocean, and that this yacht "sank" because its keel fell off. This yacht is still floating, has yet to sink as far as I'm aware, although I've not kept up to date for a few days. Had the crew been able to stay on the surface next to the yacht and alive they would have been rescued, but chances are that doing so would have seen them smashed into the upturned hull as a monster wave passed.
lustyd
Well-Known Member
It's no better idea than painting the keel with anti foul - the problem is inspection and always will be unless some kind of piezo electric device is used to spark a reaction on the electronics in a black box. Heck, even the insurance black boxes from cars would detect G force well enough to work here for charter.
snooks
Well-Known Member
Arcona, built in Sweden (and somewhere else) -where rock bumping is a national pastime- do a keel option with a rubber D section in the forefoot of the keel. Then again they also have a galvanised steel frame to spread the keel and chain plate loads around the hull.
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seacock
Member
Good Rant!
Yes, sorry its was a rant, motivated by frustration if anything, because I know nothing will change.
I've yet to hear or find out if the hull was recovered? Without it what's the MAIB got to investigate? they've surely got just about the same guesstimation as everyone else surely? Won't they be making their judgements from the same photos? From the photos alone, common sense tells you that the keel mounting appears highly inadequate.
Yes, sorry its was a rant, motivated by frustration if anything, because I know nothing will change.
I've yet to hear or find out if the hull was recovered? Without it what's the MAIB got to investigate? they've surely got just about the same guesstimation as everyone else surely? Won't they be making their judgements from the same photos? From the photos alone, common sense tells you that the keel mounting appears highly inadequate.
Rum_Pirate
Well-Known Member
Categories mean very little. It's more about the person and their mentality and preparation than the boat. Take a well found boat, neglect it, don't service the engine, replace filters, look after the sail etc and she'll be more of a death trap than many smaller "unsuitable" boats properly prepared.
As for bolt on keels...they have been bolting on keels for over 100 years, how do you think the lead on wooden boats stays attached? Sikafex?
Only the surface area and the bolt thickness and material has really changed.
The problem is that no one, and I mean no one, really knows the full history of the keel. It's gone out with charterers and any number of them could have grounded her at speed, by accident or dried out badly. There is simply no way of knowing what has happened to this boat, so blaming the mfg or design might not be just barking up the wrong tree but barking in a completely different forest!
I would hazard a guess that there are many ex-charterers (and their crews) of CR who are now feeling very guilty for not fessing up for fear of losing their security deposit. Did they have the grounding that ultimately led to the loss of CRs yacht? Probably not, but they will never know for sure.
So what is the solution? A strip of plasticine on the base of the keel - like the toe board of the long jump? Totally impractical but there must be a way. AIS is probably favourite, but inspecting every route and the state of the tide would be a thankless and time consuming task.
So instead of blaming the keel, let's look at ways of preventing a boat being grounded without visible signs it's happened.
The keels that were bolted on to wooden boats over the last 100 years tended (particularly in the 20th century) tended to be with relatively short keel bolts.
The surface area for fixing and the depth of the keel are extremely important factors, leverage effect etc.
The modern deep fin keel, I suspect, provides a tremendous (read massive) amount of leverage in comparison to a traditional full keel at the point at which it is attached to the vessel.
How does this relate to losing a keel in mid-Atlantic?Categories mean very little. It's more about the person and their mentality and preparation than the boat. Take a well found boat, neglect it, don't service the engine, replace filters, look after the sail etc and she'll be more of a death trap than many smaller "unsuitable" boats properly prepared.
As for bolt on keels...they have been bolting on keels for over 100 years, how do you think the lead on wooden boats stays attached? Sikafex?
Only the surface area and the bolt thickness and material has really changed.
The problem is that no one, and I mean no one, really knows the full history of the keel. It's gone out with charterers and any number of them could have grounded her at speed, by accident or dried out badly. There is simply no way of knowing what has happened to this boat, so blaming the mfg or design might not be just barking up the wrong tree but barking in a completely different forest!
I would hazard a guess that there are many ex-charterers (and their crews) of CR who are now feeling very guilty for not fessing up for fear of losing their security deposit. Did they have the grounding that ultimately led to the loss of CRs yacht? Probably not, but they will never know for sure.
So what is the solution? A strip of plasticine on the base of the keel - like the toe board of the long jump? Totally impractical but there must be a way. AIS is probably favourite, but inspecting every route and the state of the tide would be a thankless and time consuming task.
So instead of blaming the keel, let's look at ways of preventing a boat being grounded without visible signs it's happened.
Rigger Mortice
N/A
FWIW I posted this on one of the other threads;
They can interview Stormforce, previous charterers of the boat, and examine maintenance records. The Americans will have taken a lot more photo's than we have seen. They can check to see exactly what experience the skipper and crew had. They can find out when the life raft was last serviced. They can talk to Beneteau (?), maybe check production records and examine how the boat was designed and made.
I'm sure there's a lot more.
It's only my guess, but I'm sure that a lot can be done even without the wreck. It's also naiive to assume that all the photo's have been released (we know for example that they used an underwater camera to look inside the hull).
As for coming to conclusions based on "common sense" viewings of a couple of photo's and nothing else; I'm sorry but that is ridiculous.
Until a proper investigation has taken place and all the available evidence has been examined it is impossible to come to any useful conclusions. Anything else is just speculation, and there's been a lot of that over the last few days.
snooks
Well-Known Member
In the majority of cases I've read about a keel failure (vendee competitions, deep draught race boats and Hooligan aside) they have also suffered a grounding of one sort or another. I'd like to think Bruce Farr did some calculations and worked out what was needed to keep the keel on. What he can't or couldn't account for is someone hitting the bottom prior (in the boats life, not racing in Antigua) to CR crossing the Atlantic.
It's more likely for the keel to hit something then drop off, than just drop off through use, is it not?
interloper
Well-Known Member
Losing a keel doesn't seem to be unique to Beneteaus. A Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 37 charter boat lost its keel a few years ago in the Isles of Scilly and it wasn't noticed until two charters later.
http://www.wavetrain.net/news-a-views/190-charter-boat-loses-keel-and-no-one-noticed
... As documented in recent issues of Yachting Monthly, Polbream was halfway through a round-trip bareboat charter to the Isles of Scilly this past August when she struck a rock and her keel fell off. Her crew never noticed the missing appendage, or the missing 4,000 pounds of ballast, and returned the boat to charter operator Cornish Cruising in Falmouth without mentioning the collision with the rock.
Polbream was then sent out on another charter, a round trip to Plymouth and back, and this crew also failed to notice the boat had no ballast or keel. They did note the steering was a bit squirrely, but never investigated the cause. Only on Polbream's third keel-less charter, after sailing nearly 150 miles with no ballast, did her crew realize something was seriously wrong.
Divers eventually discovered the missing keel standing upright in 20 feet of water in a rock cleft just north of the island of Tresco in the Isles of Scilly. ...
http://www.wavetrain.net/news-a-views/190-charter-boat-loses-keel-and-no-one-noticed
... As documented in recent issues of Yachting Monthly, Polbream was halfway through a round-trip bareboat charter to the Isles of Scilly this past August when she struck a rock and her keel fell off. Her crew never noticed the missing appendage, or the missing 4,000 pounds of ballast, and returned the boat to charter operator Cornish Cruising in Falmouth without mentioning the collision with the rock.
Polbream was then sent out on another charter, a round trip to Plymouth and back, and this crew also failed to notice the boat had no ballast or keel. They did note the steering was a bit squirrely, but never investigated the cause. Only on Polbream's third keel-less charter, after sailing nearly 150 miles with no ballast, did her crew realize something was seriously wrong.
Divers eventually discovered the missing keel standing upright in 20 feet of water in a rock cleft just north of the island of Tresco in the Isles of Scilly. ...
Daydream believer
Well-Known Member
I once saw a 45 ft ( approx) Grand Soleil on the hard in Ijmuiden. There were covers over the keel so i lifted one to see that the lead bulb (where it was attached to a cast iron stub) had clearly hit something & was hanging off. It seemed to be held by just a couple of bolts. The rest having sheared or pulled out.
I could get my fist in the gap at the leading edge of the stub
i have no idea what damage had been sustained to the hull where the stub met the hull
If one had not known about this & gone sailing, i could well imagine the lead bulb dropping off
I could get my fist in the gap at the leading edge of the stub
i have no idea what damage had been sustained to the hull where the stub met the hull
If one had not known about this & gone sailing, i could well imagine the lead bulb dropping off
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D
Deleted member 36384
Guest
At least one charter company, Isle of Sky Charters IIRC (I could be wrong) that state in their terms and conditions that a grounding which is reported will not result in loss of security deposit for keel damage.
alant
Well-Known Member
How do they verify which charterer, unless keel is inspected each time?
KellysEye
Well-Known Member
>The people who were on the various committees that drafted the RCD are a matter of public record.....The stability requirements? The scantlings and strength? Equipment?
OK what is your explanation of how lightweight boats got a Cat A ocean rating. By the way the person who told me was a surveyor tasked with the things you mentioned, I met him when he surveyed our boat an we were talking about the RCD and he told me why the AWBs got an A.
OK what is your explanation of how lightweight boats got a Cat A ocean rating. By the way the person who told me was a surveyor tasked with the things you mentioned, I met him when he surveyed our boat an we were talking about the RCD and he told me why the AWBs got an A.
alant
Well-Known Member
Why?