Beneteau First lost her keel, four good men lost at sea.

Capt Popeye said:
I do think, but have no knowledge, it would only impact on a very small number of yachties, mainly upon companies running schools etc.
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If it won't affect many people, is it worth doing?

The whole system could include passage plans, that would have to be submitted and agreed, so that amongst other matters the long range weather forecasts could be studied, properly.
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Who has the jurisdiction to make this mandatory for international waters? Will they also take responsibility if something goes wrong? Do you envisage penalties for those who pull an Moitessier and change their minds about their destination? Would that be a crime only if it was done at a whim or would it also be a crime to deviate from the approved passage plan if the weather changed?
 
estarzinger said:
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Regarding weather routing . . . I have not been able to determine what sort of routing these guys had (shore or on board). But they were significantly to the NW of the most prudent route (for that month). I have been curious if they were there for commercial reasons (time and fuel pressure). I have also been curious if there was any discussion with home base about slowing or even turning around, because this storm formation was visible in advance on the gribs, and even a 100nm further separation would have helped.
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Other than climatological considerations, forget routing o keep most yachts out of trouble. Superfast RTW racers apart, yachts are too slow, storms are too big and forecasting more than about 5 days ahead is insufficiently precise. On a long passage, if a storm has your name on it then it will get you.

Use forecasts to give warning of trouble to come ie when to get the tri-sail on, batten down, get a hot meal etc. If you use routing packages, decide on your best route climatologically. Then, each day, use GRIB data to decide what course to get you on track in, say 7 or 8 days time. Update daily.
 
JumbleDuck said:
If it won't affect many people, is it worth doing?



Who has the jurisdiction to make this mandatory for international waters? Will they also take responsibility if something goes wrong? Do you envisage penalties for those who pull an Moitessier and change their minds about their destination? Would that be a crime only if it was done at a whim or would it also be a crime to deviate from the approved passage plan if the weather changed?
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Ah, a passage plan could /should include bolt holes to allow for troubles , changes in weather and crew /boat troubles. Rather better to work out all the options before venturing out on long voyages. Can be done with a clear mind, and any S and R have a good idea of the possibilities considered by skippers.
 
Capt Popeye said:
Disagreeable as it might be, but if lives are saved, well, so be it:-)

I do think, but have no knowledge, it would only impact on a very small number of yachties, mainly upon companies running schools etc.
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What a very daft suggestion.

So what language would this be in? Who regulates it? Who cares?

So if saving lives is the main objective...May be we should all go around with crash helmets on, ban cars, beer, cigarettes, dogs, etc etc. More people are killed by them daily than sailing in a storm annually.

I'd guess that police cars kill more people in one years than 10 years of yachtsmen caught out in storm. Ban police cars, or should we get them to fill out a journey plan so everyone knows where to avoid them?

Bonkers innit
 
Capt Popeye said:
Disagreeable as it might be, but if lives are saved, well, so be it:-)
d.
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Picking up on the question of 'more paperwork'. I think less is better. Just get boat builders to build better boats!! It might exclude 80% of us from yachting due to the sheer cost of safety. Watertight bulkheads, proper bilge pumps! Hallberg rassy and Oyster have awful bilge pumps as standard. Hand operated? Thats surely the most stupid way of wasted human energy for pumping a bilge. Ive dreamt of pumps inspired by rowing, cycling, step machine, leg press etc
 
Capt Popeye said:
Disagreeable as it might be, but if lives are saved, well, so be it:-)

I do think, but have no knowledge, it would only impact on a very small number of yachties, mainly upon companies running schools etc.

The whole system could include passage plans, that would have to be submitted and agreed, so that amongst other matters the long range weather forecasts could be studied, properly.

Suggest that if such a passage plan is mandoratory before sailing into such waters, advice could be given about water temperatures for example which will greatly effect life span if overboard.
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Passage plans are already required but I rather doubt that any passage plan would have made the slightest difference in this case.
 
Capt Popeye said:
Ah, a passage plan could /should include bolt holes to allow for troubles , changes in weather and crew /boat troubles. Rather better to work out all the options before venturing out on long voyages. Can be done with a clear mind, and any S and R have a good idea of the possibilities considered by skippers.
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In the middle of an ocean?
 
Rigger Mortice said:
Passage plans are already required but I rather doubt that any passage plan would have made the slightest difference in this case.
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Well I disagree, if the type of passage plan that I referred to, an authority would have to sight and agree the plan, in this particular case I understand that the Storm force conditions were known of, for some timt, so unlikely that the passage taken might not have been given the OK . The more southerly route was the preferred rote at this time of the year, as we are given to understand, perhaps this was not appreciated by the yacht crew, but others knew and understood this information. The more southerly route was also a lot safer, as we are given to understand, so this raises questions for any investigation.

If compolsory suitable radio is a requirement, then the whole journey is surely infinitely safer, so I would suggest that the status quo should not be allowed to continue.

Changes, radical and authoritarian, are perhaps really necessary.
 
alant said:
In the middle of an ocean?
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Yep no problem, in this case it would appear that the Azores was the Safe Haven when trouble became evident, trouble being that the Northerly route taken by yacht put them further away from the Azores than the more Southerly route. All this just might have been evident to authorities, if a passage plan had to be first agreed.

So even crossing an Ocean bolt holes can be planned before starting out, no problem :-)
 
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Captain Popey, have you ever considered that puming olive oil would be your best bet?
 
Capt Popeye said:
Well I disagree, if the type of passage plan that I referred to, an authority would have to sight and agree the plan, in this particular case I understand that the Storm force conditions were known of, for some timt, so unlikely that the passage taken might not have been given the OK . The more southerly route was the preferred rote at this time of the year, as we are given to understand, perhaps this was not appreciated by the yacht crew, but others knew and understood this information. The more southerly route was also a lot safer, as we are given to understand, so this raises questions for any investigation.

If compolsory suitable radio is a requirement, then the whole journey is surely infinitely safer, so I would suggest that the status quo should not be allowed to continue.

Changes, radical and authoritarian, are perhaps really necessary.
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Because "Authorities" do so well at everything else. This would become a waste of time within a month, with the bureaucrats in charge rubber stamping anything that was identical to their standard plan and rejecting everything else. The end result being that one route, and one route only is allowed regardless of conditions.

You're also forgetting the legal and insurance issues of confirming that a sailor and boat will be safe...
 
Capt Popeye said:
Yep no problem, in this case it would appear that the Azores was the bolt hole when trouble became evident, trouble being that the Northerly route taken by yacht put them further away from the Azores than the more Southerly route. All this just might have been evident to authorities, if a passage plan had to be first agreed.

So even crossing an Ocean bolt holes can be planned before starting out, no problem :-)
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What authorities? I could just about understand some half way to competent, joined up organisation like the MCA or USCG doing the job but have you ever been into a PP office in Greece for example? No computers, staffed by paper pushers with no idea of what you're talking about and, most importantly, each office has a different idea of what the law means and how it is to be implemented. The concept of requiring permission to set sail based on a cleared passage plan would be a total nightmare and would achieve nothing.
 
duncan99210 said:
What authorities? I could just about understand some half way to competent, joined up organisation like the MCA or USCG doing the job but have you ever been into a PP office in Greece for example? No computers, staffed by paper pushers with no idea of what you're talking about and, most importantly, each office has a different idea of what the law means and how it is to be implemented. The concept of requiring permission to set sail based on a cleared passage plan would be a total nightmare and would achieve nothing.
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Might be right in all that, but I was really only thinking of the Atlantic's, and non EU countries who just might run things better, woops we are still just in the EU, bugger it:-)
 
Capt Popeye said:
Might I ask how the authorities manage the Pistes in asking', as I understand it, certain areas are declared 'off piste' or something meaning that there are closed off areas:-)
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A piste is a marked run where snow has been squashed by a machine to preserve the snow and make it easier for people to ski on. Off piste is an area where snow has been left in its natural state it has nothing to do with closed off areas. This confusion occurs because they don't compact the snow in closed off areas.
 
Capt Popeye said:
Might I ask how the authorities manage the Pistes in asking', as I understand it, certain areas are declared 'off piste' or something meaning that there are closed off areas:-)
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And the off piste areas are uncontrolled. People use them at their own risk, as is evidenced by the casualties that happen every year where people choose to accept the risk........
 
Clearly the idea of mandatory passage plans pre checked by some authority is not workable
however, the EU might do something about the grading system for new yachts
My boat is category A for example & all I know is that it is rated as Ok for extended unassisted offshore passages ( Or something like that)

I cannot imagine that (as it was sold to me) it could possibly be conceived as such, but the "A" is misleading & might lead potential owners to buy a yacht which could be deemed unsuitable

We are never going to stop disasters like the recent one ,but I do think that manufacturers should be made to regrade yachts
If it means that the " ocean going" ones cost more then so beit
Several have different streams of yachts - ie Hanse group have Hanse, Dehler, Moody & another one ( forget the name)
Beneteau etc also have different qualities of boat so the option to produce different qualities is already there. They just need different system of grading
 
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