TiggerToo
Well-Known Member
misogyny?
Bayesian Interim Report
- Thread starter DreadShips
- Start date
Bouba
Well-Known Member
I agree….if we find this thread has gone mizzen…it’s Poignard’s fault
mattonthesea
Well-Known Member
We were caught in 41kt squall on Swedish lake. With 2800 rpm I still had difficulty keeping her into wind. They had a much bigger profile
dunedin
Well-Known Member
Would that be before or after mods like furling genoa, second inner jib, furling mainsail, solar arch etc- all of which could seriously reduce stability
Fr J Hackett
Well-Known Member
Most of those such as furling sails would be taken into account in the calculation of AVS of a "modern" yacht as they are part of the original equipment, I am pretty sure they stopped selling boats with hanked on genoas quite a while back and yes I know that racing yachts are sold like that.
However my somewhat rhetorical question was about manufacturers and designers of lifting keel / centreboard yachts report the AVS of their yachts with keel / centreboard lowered and raised. Up to yet only Flaming has answered the question in respect of Pogo yachts which do. I don't expect there will be many Boreal or Garcia owners if any on here but there are Southerly owners, so the question remains unanswered for the large part of cruising production yachts.
Laser310
Well-Known Member
a lot of these boats - the aluminum boats around 12-14m don't have great stability even with the boards down.
but there is not really much evidence that it is a problem.
the french are cruising low-stability boats all over the world, and as far as i know, they aren't getting rolled.
and if they do get knocked down, as long as the companionway is closed, they will not downflood.
Ocean races typically set minimum stability criteria with surprising results; the Pogo 50, for example, doesn't meet criteria for Newport-Bermuda. That race lost 3 boats in 2024.., and none of the losses were related to stability...
Fr J Hackett
Well-Known Member
I would be really interested in the stability curves for the Boreal and Garcia yachts internet searches doesn't provide them but as you say they have cruised in extreme areas without problems.
westernman
Well-Known Member
And bigger anchors and bigger engines.
capnsensible
Well-Known Member
And getting on for twice as much wind. On the beam. With all that psi force.
PWLS08
Active Member
Do you think that's a helpful comment that adds value to a serious thread?
Roberto
Well-Known Member
Hello,
data is usually kept well hidden for commercial reasons; I had access to one such stability curve and was... oh my oh my. Despite this, these boats have gone and go everywhere with no major accidents related to their design, that tells something about the general efficiency of Stix, which in its current formulation might suit some types of boats better than others. Ovni Garcia Boreal all (?) have daggerboards, so most of stability is given by internal ballast, daggerboard lifted or lowered does not change much in terms of RM righting moment. From what my friends owners of such boats say, a raised daggerboard actually increases the survival chances of the boat in heavy seas/breakers, as dynamically the boat slides laterally without the dynamic heeling moment given by a fixed fin keel being propelled with a sideways component through the water; so they say.
Pogo are a different matter, the keel is heavy, ballasted, the yard states it must be kept lowered during sailing, it can only be raised to access ports of anchorages with low depths under engines.
DownWest
Well-Known Member
I wonder about the stability curves of her sister ships, with lower ketch rigs. Also, what is the normal AVS for super yachts of that size? It can't be as low as 70 deg. Or is it?
Rappey
Well-Known Member
I google bayesian swing keel weight and it said 45 tons. It also said the majority of its ballast is in the stub keel .
Bayesian seems more of a luxury motor cruiser with the ability to do a bit of light sailing rather than a sailing vessel first.
Google suggests some ocean liners can tip to 60% before capsize.
I had a evolution 26 that had a fairly substantial lifting keel. The hull also had ballast to prevent capsize when sailing with the keel up. The boat could also be dried out with the keel down but i didnt fancy trying it.
Julian Everitt has designed many boats and is very active and approachable on fb. He told me much about the evolution..
Bayesian seems more of a luxury motor cruiser with the ability to do a bit of light sailing rather than a sailing vessel first.
Google suggests some ocean liners can tip to 60% before capsize.
I had a evolution 26 that had a fairly substantial lifting keel. The hull also had ballast to prevent capsize when sailing with the keel up. The boat could also be dried out with the keel down but i didnt fancy trying it.
Julian Everitt has designed many boats and is very active and approachable on fb. He told me much about the evolution..
Bouba
Well-Known Member
I wonder if the Bayesian had any active stabilization technology on board and switched on
dunedin
Well-Known Member
Sorry but you are way out of your technical depth and not helping add any accuracy.
Most sources say Bayesian had a huge 200 tons of ballast, with 60 tons in the liftable element.
She was a very efficient sailing yacht not a “luxury motor cruiser”
Rappey
Well-Known Member
There is no need to speak to me like that. Have i ever been rude to you ?
Kind of proves the point about accuracy though when googling so i could assume you know it is an efficient sailing yacht from experience rather than like me and something i read online?
Supertramp
Well-Known Member
One big difference between lift keel designs is the extent to which the centre board counts as ballast. Ovnis have a relatively light board (aluminium?) so the AVS should not be so different up or down. Southerly have some ballast in the lift keel but most in the ballast plate. I used to sail an Eagle 525 (Skipper 17) and even with both boards raised it would recover from near horizontal.
I have always (naively?) assumed that any proper yacht would pull itself back up from 90 degrees (or more) notwithstanding downflooding, waterlogged sails etc. I don't see how a yacht could be sailed properly with a 70 degree heel restriction. One squall or one rogue wave could breach the criteria.
Mark-1
Well-Known Member
There was a lot of commentary about this at the time and I'm not sure that's true. I seem to recall it had a strict limit on the wind strength it could sail in and on passage would exclusively use engines.
The description "luxury motor cruiser with the ability to do a bit of light sailing" seems spot on to me. The sailing aspect seems mainly to entertain guests and owners. (Apparently there's a super yacht race around the cans for them too.)
Maybe my recollection is wrong.
dunedin
Well-Known Member
Can you provide any sources for these suggestions?
Yes on long passages these boats often use engines - as typically no guests on board, and wear and tear on carbon racing sails is very expensive. (Boats like original J Class used to change to separate delivery sails even 100 years ago.)
The reason she was built with a sloop rig - as Salute - was presumably for better sailing performance. I don’t have access to the results, but boats like that are often raced very hard in the superyacht regattas with professional race crews - not the regular cruising crew, but ex Olympic and Offshore racing pros. I have watched many of them racing.
Rappey
Well-Known Member
I cant but
"Below decks sailing yacht" has 5 seasons. It features a perini navi ketch that looks a similar style of yacht to bayesian (Now i have to confess to watching it
)The yacht was operated exactly like a motor yacht in that it leaves its berth with guests and heads for an anchorage. Once there it deploys its toys and looks after the guests. The one difference was it also had sails which really appeared to be more of a party piece to thrill guests as long as the yacht did not heel beyond 15 degrees. When it did it encountered numerous problems like generators shutting down so loss of hydraulics, main saloon doors flying open etc. It only sailed in nice conditions, i dont ever recall the mizzen being used and it always seemed a short sail. Motoring seemed preferable for comfort and speed.
Colin from youtube "parley revival" was chief engineer for a few seasons.
Above is just a "reality show" and could give false impressions but thats how it came across.