Baveria 37 2002 v Ocienas 361 2003

[Timgyacht]

Just looking at these 2 boats,
Sailing BritishIsles, North Sea, Down to Canaries. Would welcome any comments good or bad. Mainly shorthand sailing, TIA

 

[Tranona]

Not a lot to choose between them, although I would choose the Bavaria perhaps because I bought one new in 2001 and kept it 14 years in both the Med and back in UK. Mine was a 3 cabin (because for part of the time it earned its keep as a charter boat) with shallow draft keel because I planed to transit the French canals. However for personal use I would have preferred the 2 cabin version with the nice armchairs in the saloon and a standard keel. The in mast was a good choice, but not a deal breaker but for the sort of use you plan I suggest you change the original genoa for a smaller higher cut one if it has not already been done. The original is fine for light airs in the Med, but I found in typical northern conditions I sailed normally with at least 2 rolls in the jib. For single handing it is useful to have a longer mainsheet taken back along the coaming to a clutch near the wheel. All sail handling from the cockpit helped by a good autopilot. Pretty bullet proof build, although electrics can be a bit iffy mainly because tinned wire was not used. However, access and layout of electrics and plumbing is generally good. The original 2030 engine was excellent and if it has been well looked after should still be good for another few years. Mine did 3500 hours in my ownership and was running as well as it did in 2001. Good long runs at 2400rpm and regular oil change is all they ask for. Good support for spares as most of the gear is from well known suppliers and Bavaria specific spares are available from SVB in Germany. Good forum here bavariayacht.org/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=frt1fc60rij2f8d1b3u8q50iv2;sslRedirect Although it has been dormant for a few months because of the difficulties in complying with new legislation it is now back again and most importantly the archives are accessible. Over the years most of the threads were about boats in the 1997-2010 era when Bavaria was at its height. Most of the common issues have been dealt with at some time. The owners survey is particularly useful as it identifies how few real problems there are and a guide of how to deal with them.

Much the same could be said about the Beneteau (and the equivalent Jeanneau) - they were direct competitors and in many ways it is a personal choice. I was based in Corfu for the first 9 years and there were large number of all 3 there mainly on charter and were all well regarded. My choice was determined as much by the deal I got to buy the boat, but I was so pleased with it that in 2015 I swapped for a new 33 which was equally good.

However buying a near 25 year old boat is rather different from buying new. Condition is far more important and at this age you can expect wide differences in how boats have been maintained and updated. Most will have had several owners and will have needed new sails, rigging, possibly engines plus upgrades to nav gear and some domestic items. I guess you will be looking in the +/- £40k range so do not be surprised if you then spend another £10k+ before doing the extensive cruising you suggest.

If you post links to the boats you are looking at you will probably get more direct feedback.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Had a Bav 36 from 1999 for about a decade. Can only repeat what @Tranona said. My Brother has a newer Bav 38 (2008) in Scotland and is equally pleased with it. For your intended use it will be fine. I did look at the 361 and had the feeling the interior was not as spacious, but I have sailed a 393 from 2005 and it was also a sound boat.

Go with the one that you prefer and you won't go far wrong.

 

[ashtead]

As a former owner of a Bav34 I am also a satisfied Bav fan. We berthed next to a Bav37 of same era today in Haslar and while it now looks dated the owners seem to be fairly frequent occupiers so as quasi liveabords they seem to have enough space - I would endorse the comment about the mainsheet made by Tranona and also suggest looking at Bav owners website. Hopefully by now the sails have been replaced as the originals by elvstrom were poor . Otherwise check for things like when saildrive gaiter been replaced , has the cooker been replaced as Bav branded versions poor. I’m assuming a 37 has a windlass(it was an extra on the 34) . The berth cushions on a Bav will hopefully have been replaced but if not price in new ones in bow. Good luck with search but if you are able to reveal particular Bav you are considering it might be others know more. Hopefully it has heating , new batteries with isolation switches etc fitted and relaced chart plotter plus AIS.

 

[CrossedThreads]

We sail a Bavaria 38 from 2000. I’ve been very impressed with her both from a handling perspective and a build perspective. We’ve done lots of work to her over the last few years and she’s never felt “cheap” like many will accuse Bavaria of being. I looked at lots of different brands and found the Bavarias of this age stood up well. We’re now considering moving up to a bigger boat as the family is growing and I’m back looking at bigger bavarias for all of the reasons above. That being said the thought of selling what we’ve got is a tough one as she’s a great boat.

 

[ylop]

As yet another Bav owner I’ll offer another endorsement but chuck in a caveat - the alternative is probably good too, and if it’s been better looked after, modernised, or has a particular layout that works for you then any of those things likely trump the brand.

 

[Bobc]

I've had my Bavaria for 22 years (from new), and have no inenntion of selling it until I get too old or unfit to sail it. The J&J boats sail very well and are easy to maintain and repair.

 

[Timgyacht]

Thanks for info so far! Just add another thought into the mix!
The boats were mainly built for the charter market in the med by the research but don’t shoot me down if I am wrong! The main comments I am seeing is that you may have to reef earlier than others when wind starts to pick up, and gets pushed about in a swell. Due I would have thought to the amount of free board and not enough displacement on the keel??
With that in mind do you go for something like a bav38 ocean or similar.
The main reason for me is not really sailing ability but confidence if caught in heavy weather which will happen!!

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Thanks for info so far! Just add another thought into the mix!
The boats were mainly built for the charter market in the med by the research but don’t shoot me down if I am wrong! The main comments I am seeing is that you may have to reef earlier than others when wind starts to pick up, and gets pushed about in a swell. Due I would have thought to the amount of free board and not enough displacement on the keel??
With that in mind do you go for something like a bav38 ocean or similar.
The main reason for me is not really sailing ability but confidence if caught in heavy weather which will happen!!

I'd say they are built to make reasonable progress, even in light winds, and yes, they are built for warmer climes. That doesn't mean they won't take a beating. I don't want to start a discussion about "seaworthiness" because it is an unhelpful term, production boats have a set of design rules and a classification that is adequate for what 99,9% of their owners do with them, but you can't expect a set of numbers, or a particular design element to save your skin when the chips are down - that's down to you and your crew. Listen to your gut in any boat and don't push beyond your own ability - you and your crew will fail before the boat does.

These boats, as with most boats, sail faster when not over on their ears, and you can't just leave all the sail up and plod along. One huge advantage however is that the cockpit is a relatively safe place - no mainsheets, travellers, or low booms to cut fingers off, throttle crew, or stove skulls in.

There are people who thrash their boats for fun, Search "Stormchaser1 Moreton Bay 40kts" on YouTube - it's a Bav36, not as extreme as Erik Aanderaa with his NBJS channel but you'll get the idea - is this you?

As for confidence, I have always gone for roller reefing main and genoa, and I adjust the sail size to keep the boat at a comfortable speed and angle of heel.

If you don't like roller reefing mains then go for a stack pack but try and understand the practical differences before making a purchase. Don't discount roller furling because someone with a stack-pack told you "roller furling will jam", believe me both systems have advantages and disadvantages, stack-packs require more physical effort and have their own failings, but other than that, it's down to your preference - try both, talk to owners of both, and decide.

I have also changed the 130% genoas on both my boats for 110%, which don't need to be reefed as early and keep a better shape when making to windward. Good sails make a massive difference.

At the end of the day, only you know what kind of sailing you will do, so be honest with yourself and buy the boat that you and your crew want. No point in having a cockpit with comfy cushions, BBQ, bimini, and swim platform if your sailing mostly involves beating towards Iceland in the teeth a gale.

Whatever you do, don't buy a boat for what you imagine you would like to do, buy one for what you actually will be doing.

 

[ashtead]

I would say that the Ocean range are heavier and at time more expensive with stern cabin higher cockpit and probably produced in small numbers compared to say 37. The comparison is not really apples with apples -if you want to compare an oven then I guess a moody or a westerly Seahawk/sealord etc are ones to view. If I was looking for an older centre cockpit then a moody 42 might be worth a look. In light winds up to say16kn then all is fine -for short distances then drop the traveller car but reef ideally -once fitted with a smaller aspect headsail (as we were advised by Sanders) then it helps but really you need to reef . The 34 used to bounce at 4500kg but maybe the 37 has more drive and weight. Now we have 9.8 tonnes we notice massive difference in our moody but clearly it’s a bigger boat but it punches along far better than our Bav. If looking though in Bav market try viewing a later 39 from around 2006approx . The numbers of 34s sold at least in uk by Opal marine will I suspect never be matched but of course in 2001 the exchange rate was somewhat better than today.

 

[Tranona]

Thanks for info so far! Just add another thought into the mix!
The boats were mainly built for the charter market in the med by the research but don’t shoot me down if I am wrong! The main comments I am seeing is that you may have to reef earlier than others when wind starts to pick up, and gets pushed about in a swell. Due I would have thought to the amount of free board and not enough displacement on the keel??
With that in mind do you go for something like a bav38 ocean or similar.
The main reason for me is not really sailing ability but confidence if caught in heavy weather which will happen!!

That applies to most modern boats in that there is a trade off for the amount of accommodation required for the sort of cruising many people do. The 37 is 5.5 tonnes which is medium displacement for the size. The Ocean range is essentially the same hull shape but greater freeboard, a lead keel and bigger rig. As a result they are heavier displacement. The Ocean 40 (the most common) is 7.9 tonnes, around 0.7 tonnes more than the cruiser hull it is based on. Partly the greater ballast and partly the heavier fitout with the aft cabin centre cockpit layout. They are preferred by some but typically command a a 40-50% price premium over the average Cruiser range. The big appeal is the aft cabin which at the time was popular for liveaboards, but the tradeoff for sailing and living in hot climates is the lack of cockpit and deck space.

The concern about being able to make progress in heavier weather is vastly overrated. This is not to say that boats of this type are as good as some other designs, but the amount of time you ever meet these sort of conditions is a tiny proportion of sailing time and an even tinier proportion of total time on the boat. Of course older narrower heavier boats will plough on in heavier conditions, but with today's weather forecasting and good planning you can avoid getting into those situations - and even if you do it may be less comfortable but you will still get there. You are right the biggest market for such boats is in the med - but that can be a rough place (as I found out on more than one occasion when I had my 37 there) and many retired charter boats are bought by people for extended cruising so you will find them all over the world. BobC is being modest about his boat in which he has crossed the Atlantic more than once. Admittedly bigger than you are looking at, but as he says they sail well once you get know them, don't break and easy to maintain.

At the end of the day, it comes down to budget. A budget of £50-60k for the boat and upgrades will get you a late 1990s early 2000s production 35-38' or a similar size 1980s British boat such as a Westerly or Moody. Up that to £70-80k and you can go either up in size to something like the Ocean or get an older Scandinavian boat such as a Malo or an HR or even a trad British boat like a Vancouver or a Victoria. However at every price point you are likely to find the production boat is better value in terms of what it offers by way of accommodation for cruising, level of equipment and general usability. People tend to spend a lot of time agonising over the boat when in reality successful cruising is more about the skipper and crew and the way they go about it.

 

[Skylark]

I had an Oceanis 361 from 2006 until 2013 when I part exchanged it for a new Beneteau.

A lot of owners remain brand-loyal.

All boats will have a compromise in some eyes.

First impressions by key family members as you step aboard to view are important considerations. Always a good starting part, in my view.

Keep an open mind and enjoy the hunt.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

My experience is that as you go bigger and heavier everything calms down. My Bav 36 was a great boat and I did have her out in some scary weather - she was "lively" but predictable and certainly didn't come close to breaking anything. My Bav 44 Vision is nowhere near as lively - we don't need to pick our drinks up when a huge powerboat goes whizzing past, and the motion of the boat generally is much reduced over the 36 - not that I ever thought the 36 was uncomfortable - it was a boat, they move.

The downside with larger boats is that the forces involved with the sheets, warps etc. are far greater - so as a cruising couple we appreciate the electric winches and furling - but neither of us can provide the brute strength required to manhandle her like we did with the 36.

Another observation is that most peoples experience of more modern designs are through chartering - and charter boats are light due to minimal inventory. A privately owned boat will have a lot more weight on board - full set of tools, spares, extra anchoring gear, leisure equipment, a bigger outboard, and a myriad of other stuff (electrical, batteries, etc. etc) that increases the overall weight of the boat above that of the ex-factory spec. This weight affects the boat handling and behaviour, it certainly did on my Bav 36, and we always tried to stow the heavy stuff down low - it was not as lively with all our gear on board.

Obviously, older boats start from a heavier baseline, but they also don't tend to have the modern attractions of accommodation, space, water/dinghy access, etc. - and they are old, which comes with its own set of issues.

You will have fun in whatever you buy - but I can't stress enough, not everyone you take on board will be as enthusiastic as you, and if those people are your family, and you buy the "wrong" boat, you'll end up either sailing alone or selling the boat.

To give an idea of Bav 36 vs Bav 44 ft ... I did a mash-up of both of my boats next to each other. Size makes a big difference to on-board comfort.

 

[nevis768]

Re Bavarias making progress in heavier weather, my Bav 32 does fine in Force 7 in Scotland, often doing 7 knots to windward, well reefed, it will also do 5 knots in 8 knots of wind. It has the original main, 2003, and a130% genoa. I've managed to avoid any windier weather so far.

 

[Tranona]

My experience is that as you go bigger and heavier everything calms down. My Bav 36 was a great boat and I did have her out in some scary weather - she was "lively" but predictable and certainly didn't come close to breaking anything. My Bav 44 Vision is nowhere near as lively - we don't need to pick our drinks up when a huge powerboat goes whizzing past, and the motion of the boat generally is much reduced over the 36 - not that I ever thought the 36 was uncomfortable - it was a boat, they move.

The downside with larger boats is that the forces involved with the sheets, warps etc. are far greater - so as a cruising couple we appreciate the electric winches and furling - but neither of us can provide the brute strength required to manhandle her like we did with the 36.

Another observation is that most peoples experience of more modern designs are through chartering - and charter boats are light due to minimal inventory. A privately owned boat will have a lot more weight on board - full set of tools, spares, extra anchoring gear, leisure equipment, a bigger outboard, and a myriad of other stuff (electrical, batteries, etc. etc) that increases the overall weight of the boat above that of the ex-factory spec. This weight affects the boat handling and behaviour, it certainly did on my Bav 36, and we always tried to stow the heavy stuff down low - it was not as lively with all our gear on board.

Obviously, older boats start from a heavier baseline, but they also don't tend to have the modern attractions of accommodation, space, water/dinghy access, etc. - and they are old, which comes with its own set of issues.

You will have fun in whatever you buy - but I can't stress enough, not everyone you take on board will be as enthusiastic as you, and if those people are your family, and you buy the "wrong" boat, you'll end up either sailing alone or selling the boat.

To give an idea of Bav 36 vs Bav 44 ft ... I did a mash-up of both of my boats next to each other. Size makes a big difference to on-board comfort.

View attachment 198506

Great image. Would be really interesting if you could patch a similar shot of a CO32 alongside. Boaty equivalent of the John Cleese and two Ronnies sketch youtube.com/watch?v=GOOKOl3rDWQ

 

[Timgyacht]

Great Sketch ‍♂

 

[Lightwave395]

Interesting, I got down to either a Bav 37 or a Dufour 38 Classic just a few weeks ago.

It was a close call but I went with the Dufour as it just felt right, it needs some TLC and had a very 'motivated seller', it's also the 'prestige' version with a lead keel and other mild performance orientated upgrades and already looks significantly better after a bow to stern deep clean....

Not much to choose but the Bav had a recent wheel pilot (replaced twice in the past few years) and several other replacements not to my liking, the Dufour has a serious ST6000 pilot, 400AH of recent gel service batteries, recent saildrive and other more serious gear but had seen little use for quite a while. That said, the Bav was very nice - if it's the one in Weymouth

 

[Tranona]

Slight tangent, but this is an example of the 1970s/80s take on a serious cruiser, but money lavished on toys so ready to go portsmouth.boatshed.com/westerly_conway-boat-344464.html
Also with the same broker what looks like a nicely up together Bavaria 37 portsmouth.boatshed.com/bavaria_37-boat-342201.html and another one mentioned above, a 2 cabin and replacement engine
coveyachts.co.uk/boat-for-sale.php?id=13448&boat=Bavaria+37

 

[Lightwave395]

Slight tangent, but this is an example of the 1970s/80s take on a serious cruiser, but money lavished on toys so ready to go portsmouth.boatshed.com/westerly_conway-boat-344464.html
Also with the same broker what looks like a nicely up together Bavaria 37 portsmouth.boatshed.com/bavaria_37-boat-342201.html and another one mentioned above, a 2 cabin and replacement engine
coveyachts.co.uk/boat-for-sale.php?id=13448&boat=Bavaria+37

The 2nd boat you refer to above is the one I looked at in Weymouth and nearly bought. It's a nice boat apart from a wheel pilot, a shallow dent in the hull that couldn't be seen whilst in the water, some further small dents in the pushpit and a puzzling partially burnt out section of switch panel, it was a nice looking boat otherwise

 

[Tranona]

Yes, the wheel pilot was a limitation, but there is not enough room in the lazarette to fit a linear drive. in my trip across the Med I had 2 new wheeldrives break the gears and unable to get any warranty support in Spain and running out of time had to cut short my intended passage round the outside so put the boat on a truck. Probably a good decision anyway as even with a working pilot it would have been a hard slog. Eventually after a couple of attempts at repair Raymarine gave me a new drive with better gears and it worked fine for the rest of my ownership, although I never tried it in any testing conditions.

That boat looks good, but they are asking top $. I sold mine in 2015 for just over £40k, but it was nowhere as good as that one, or the one in Portsmouth having had a hard life as a charter boat. The family who bought it spent about £10k on it and took it back to the Med. Sold it last year for similar money to the current asking prices