Bavaria Yachts

[Sailfree]

Manky Auld Boat - generally a more heavily built GRP boat from the 70's to 90's.

wish i never asked now

our boat mite be old but i wouldnt refer to it as "manky"

and for fun per pound i expect it meet our demands without question
not to mention keep us safe in the odd north sea squall .

just want add tho , this thread has kept me entertained for days

Don't take offense at the term Manky treat it as generic.Some old boat are lovely examples of a wellmaintained boat reflecting hours of love and attention while others smellof damp and contaminated bilges.

I sold our wooden wayfarer as I simply did not have the time to strip off the fittings and respray the hull and revarnish it and frankly the boat deserved better than my lack of care and a GRP was more suitable when all I wanted to do is go racing in it.

In a similar manner though others should not get offended by the term AWB when they have invested a lot of money, spent hours deciding the specification and want a boat to go sailing in. I am sure you would agree that they could equally get offended by others then refering totheir pride and joy as "average"

 

[Quandary]

Which figures do you dispute?

The refit budget is based on a typical 36' Westerly that is 30 years old, that has not benefited from any major equipment investment in the last 20 years and just essential maintenance in the past 7 years.

The objective of the refit is to bring the hypothetical yacht up to the same level of domestic comfort and offshore cruising reliability as a 5 year old Bavaria.

I can spot several items on your list that don't come as standard on new boats, even on a Bavaria, I also dispute that a marine diesel engine will be knackered, most of those that are replaced are still perfectly serviceable, your list also presumes that a boat gets no maintenance or renewal throughout its life, again not a normal situation, I won't bother to go on to query the high figures for work which may possibly be necessary.
I rarely see Bavarias 'cruising offshore' we get loads in the Clyde and a few as far north as Tobermory but it is remarkable how few you ever see beyond Ardnamurchan, not sure where they go, lots of Westerleys etc. out there though. I am happy to concede the 'domestic comfort' bit though, perhaps that what keeps them in the marinas.
I am not sure what lifespan the optomised engineering of construction by Bavaria is designed for but suspect from info. posted on earlier threads that it may be shorter than average.
If you want to be fair why not compare typical or average boats of the two types though to be honest I am not sure why I involved myself in such an irrelevant argument?

 

[Ubergeekian]

Which figures do you dispute?

The refit budget is based on a typical 36' Westerly that is 30 years old, that has not benefited from any major equipment investment in the last 20 years and just essential maintenance in the past 7 years.

The objective of the refit is to bring the hypothetical yacht up to the same level of domestic comfort and offshore cruising reliability as a 5 year old Bavaria.

Why not compare the Bavaria with a Westerly which has had continuous maintenance and improvement over the years? Mind you, the one you describe will cost peanuts and therefore end up substantially (hah!) cheaper than the Bavaria.

 

[doug748]

..........to be honest I am not sure why I involved myself in such an irrelevant argument?

Ah, a wise comment indeed. This thought has crossed my mind a number of times in the past.
You post, at first, trying to help and then get drawn into a dotty third universe of warped ideas.

 

[jonjo]

a dotty third universe of warped ideas.

Have been there, otherwise known as the UK secondhand boat market.

 

[jonjo]

Why not compare the Bavaria with a Westerly which has had continuous maintenance and improvement over the years?

Because such yachts are a rarity.

Two seasons ago a Westery owner invited swmbo and self aboard his W36 in France for early evening drinks. Outwardly it was a well kept boat and the owner was not short of money. The conversation got around to cruising destinations, Westerly owner said "La Rochelle and then joked like all the other years but we rarely get there, we usually break down in Cherbourg or St Peterport, last year it was Euro 5k for a new gear box".

 

[flyingscampi]

I couldn't afford to buy a 5 year old 32ft AWB so I bought a 23 year old 33ft Westerly instead. I could easily spend the sort of money JonJo mentioned to turn my MAB into a AWB however I do have the option of spreading the cost over many years and only having to spend money where it is most needed. Radar and AIS are put into the luxury category for example.

Bottom line is I'm sailing a perfectly good 33ft MAB (with a toolkit) for about half the initial outlay of an equivalent AWB.

Everyone has their own priorities for choosing their boat, I'm happy with mine (despite the ruddy headlining) and wouldn't criticise someone who makes a different choice.

 

[jonjo]

Bottom line is I'm sailing a perfectly good 33ft MAB (with a toolkit) for about half the initial outlay of an equivalent AWB.

A perfectly reasonable path into yacht ownership but I assume your cruising plans will be modest or unexpectedly curtailed for the first 5 years as you work your way around fixing and renovating boat systems.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

.... assume your cruising plans will be modest or unexpectedly curtailed ...... work your way around fixing and renovating boat systems.

How presumptuous and somewhat pompous. Low cost, so called MABs can be very reliable and trustworthy and sailed very easily without major overhaul. In my opinion most MABs just need a good clean, check and off you go.

 

[jonjo]

In my opinion most MABs just need a good clean, check and off you go.

In my experience a newly purchased MABs is a long list of breakdowns and bills waiting to happen. Those bills will be particularly painful when encountered away from a home port when the hapless yachtsman will have to rely on the nearest "Yacht Services" outfit for a fix.

You are offering "opinion", I am talking experience both personal and that distilled from countless conversations with MAB owners.

 

[awol]

In my experience a newly purchased MABs is a long list of breakdowns and bills waiting to happen.

I don't think that problem is solely associated with MABs and AWBs are not immune from faults. Experience (mine) suggests that for serious sailing a MAB can be the vessel of success e.g. "Ella's Pink Lady" and Jessica vs "Loads of Money" and what's his name - I know which was the most reliable and which had to stop for fixes.
While I don't expect failures, I try to be as prepared for problems as I can be, carry spares, know how to fit them and attempt to provide redundancy whenever possible.

Quite what this has to do with the bow falling off a Bavaria in the east I have no idea but the thread seems to be flagging ...... It could be that the original crack propagated from damage caused by the point of one of these new fangled instant-set anchors hitting the bow - perhaps more bow-rake would be a good idea.

 

[TradewindSailor]

I've been getting some quotes recently and I reckon either there'll be a lot of hidden extras on top of my quotes, or your boat is enormous.

On Bavarias though, so many charter companies use them and have tourists bumping them off the rocks and off each other all year round, yet there are comparatively few reports of problems => they must be reasonably solid.

Your assumption that charter companies buy boats because they are solid is incorrect. They buy boats because:

1 they are cheap and offer good return for their investment over a 4-8 yr life.
2 they fulfill their clients aspirations of good size accomodations and have a clean look.
3 they are easy to turn round at the end of a charter .... quick hose down and away.
4 easy to sail for any Jo that that jumps off a plane and 'says' that he can handle a boat.

Most wanner-be cruisers spend far too much time and money on refitting boats and equiping them with gadgets that they'll never use. The important items to have are good quality sails, deck gear, anchoring equipment, good dry stowage, good water and fuel capacity, a ecent size battery bank and alternator, and the engine needs to be accessible for maintenance.

Most AWB's that enter the charter world are poorly fitted out for cruising, and would have to have many £k spent on them. The sails are usually very light weight, the deck cleats too small, the winches under-size, and the battery bank way too small. Infact one of the main problems for an AWB owner is where to fit a 450-800 amp hr house bank. A friend of ours that just bought a new Beneteau 46 ended up spending an extra £30,000 to get it up to the same spec as the rest of the cruisers down here.

Someone on this forum has stated that the older boats constently break down ..... and back this up with his 'experience'. WHAT A LOAD OF TOSH!!!! Any boat that is not maintained properly will break down sometime. Most problems are due to bad fuel. All are avoidable. The charter companies have more than their fair share of breakdowns ..... some faults can be put down to the usual 'new build' problem, but most down to poor mainenance due to the clients either not detecting faults or not recognising them.

 

[jonjo]

Someone on this forum has stated that the older boats constently break down ..... and back this up with his 'experience'. WHAT A LOAD OF TOSH

Your statistical sample is flawed. The MABs you encounter cruising around the Caribbean have been through a rigorous selection process called a transatlantic crossing.

To comprehend my point you would have to man the phone at Weymouth, Dartmouth or Plymouth marine services and then hear the tales of woe as older yachts break down after 100 miles of coastal sailing.

Most problems are due to bad fuel. All are avoidable.

I find the extraordinary levels of self deception some yachtsmen use to justify their selection of yacht, quite fascinating.

No doubt these same people are capable of rational thought when it comes to their car ownership. They know that after 10 years and 150k miles on the clock they are living on borrowed time, yet apparently the laws of material science or wear & tear are suspended when afloat.

 

[Ubergeekian]

A perfectly reasonable path into yacht ownership but I assume your cruising plans will be modest or unexpectedly curtailed for the first 5 years as you work your way around fixing and renovating boat systems.

You miss the point. Older Westerlies - and Victorias, for that matter - just don't have as many systems to go wrong. Those they do have tend on the whole to be built to a high standard.

 

[Ubergeekian]

In my experience a newly purchased MABs is a long list of breakdowns and bills waiting to happen.

That may say more about your astuteness in choosing boats or your assiduity in maintaining them.

You are offering "opinion", I am talking experience both personal and that distilled from countless conversations with MAB owners.

He may be offering opinion, but all you're offering is anecdote, which isn't upping the ante much. Notoriously unreliable too - how many of us have great stories to tell based on things going uneventfully right?

 

[flyingscampi]

A perfectly reasonable path into yacht ownership but I assume your cruising plans will be modest or unexpectedly curtailed for the first 5 years as you work your way around fixing and renovating boat systems.

I was a novice sailor/boat owner when I bought her 3 years ago so my plans were indeed modest but she's a strong boat and easy to work on so after spending £10k and a lot of my time I reckon she could go just about anywhere now.

Not sure about her skipper though

 

[Ken_Irby]

Those bolts are NOT Original Bavaria

this is the view of a man who operates bavarias in a charter business here in Corfu. They do not use those big circle plates washers and he says they do not leave the bolts ends un-covered by plastic. the boat must have been repaired from a prevoius crash before this accident, he thinks.
Kentrina

 

[Sailfree]

I never cease to be amazed at the stupidity these threads bring out from some contributors.

AWB's do slam are light and go fast. Most are built with good QC.

MAB's can be delightful older designs but the majority will require some TLC and £s spent on them. To those that have bought a 30yr old boat and then sailed round the world a dozen times with no replacements necessary - good luck to you but common sense dictates that old boats like cars are likely to need some repairs - why are the MAB brigade so incensed at people who buy a new AWB and spend their time going sailing that they need to justify their choice of MAB?

Likewise designs do progress - again not to everyones taste but try driving a 60's mini and then a new BMW designed one. I know which one I would choose for frequent use!

Each choice (AWB v MAB) has its merits. Certainly criticise a Bavaria if its design with its many cabins/beam/caravan is not to your personal taste but please stop trying to infer poor build quality when charter fleets use them very heavily with little trouble.

If you want to mention the old chestnut of the Bavaria match keel problem that was a one off and while Bavarias handling of it was indefensible, Robin has posted about many keel problems on older boats (some considered MAB's) in other threads.

 

[Mr Cassandra]

I never cease to be amazed at the stupidy these threads bring out from some contributors.

AWB's do slam are light and go fast. Most are built with good QC.

MAB's can be delightful older designs but the majority will require some TLC and £s spent on them. To those that have bought a 30yr old boat and then sailed round the world a dozen times with no replacements necessary - good luck to you but common sense dictates that old boats like cars are likely to need some repairs - why are the MAB brigade so incensed at people who buy a new AWB and spend their time going sailing that they need to justify their choice of MAB?

Likewise designs do progress - again not to everyones taste but try driving a 60's mini and then a new BMW designed one. I know which one I would choose for frequent use!

Each choice (AWB v MAB) has its merits. Certainly criticise a Bavaria if its design with its many cabins/beam/caravan is not to your personal taste but please stop trying to infer poor build quality when charter fleets use them very heavily with little trouble.

If you want to mention the old chestnut of the Bavaria match keel problem that was a one off and while Bavarias handling of it was indefensible, Robin has posted about many keel problems on older boats (some considered MAB's) in other threads.

Well said
I have a modern MAB Jeanneau SunMagic 44 (Cruiser Racer as Robin would say)from 1992 spent a fortune getting her up to a standard ,that comes off the shelf with a New Bavaria .

 

[KellysEye]

>To those that have bought a 30yr old boat and then sailed round the world a dozen times with no replacements necessary - good luck to you but common sense dictates that old boats like cars are likely to need some repairs

Well of course old long distance boats need repairs. Three reasons. More wear and tear because of long passages. Long distance boats carry more kit thus more to repair. Almost all marine kit is designed for weekend sailors.

If you don't want to repair much kit then an AWB sailing weekends and the odd holiday is perfect.

>Likewise designs do progress - again not to everyones taste but try driving a 60's mini and then a new BMW designed one. I know which one I would choose for frequent use!

Again it depends what sort of sailing you want to do. Traditional heavy displacement designs are significantly more comfortable in a seaway than AWBs. If you don't sail much, and not in bad weather, then the space inside an AWB is also perfect.

Horses for courses.