Bavaria visit

[oldsalt]

In this month's YM there is a report on a visit to the Bavaria factory. (What do you mean that you've read it already in another magazine- surely they never repeat articles do they?)

One paragraph states that the use of large amounts of sealant between furniture modules is the price of efficiency and economy and that everything fits the way it should.

In my view the use of large amounts of sealant is a result of cheap shoddy workmanship; surely Bavaria's CNC machines can cut ply to a better tolerance? After all look at the good fit achieved in cars, perhaps the ultimate mass produced product.



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[nicho]

Here we go, more Bavaria bashing!! I have a new Bav 36, and for sure there is some sealant visible if you REALLY look for it, but it doesn't hit you in the eye when inside the cabin (and it's certainly no more that in our previous motor cruiser, a Sealine S37).....visitors are very complimentary about the fit and finish down below (and OUR visitors would not be backward with their critical views!!).

Bavaria do not cut corners in aspects of the quality of their fixtures and fittings, (Selden, Harken, Lewmar etc), nor with the general quality of their build. Indeed their type of production ensures a very consistant build quality that will see no such future problems as happened to an unfortunate bunch of Starlight owners, where a small producer's poor quality of supplier screwed up. Bavarias production techniques and buying power, bring VERY acceptable new boats within the reach of many like me who simply do not wish to purchase a second hand boat, and cannot afford a Najad, Hallberg Rassy, Nauticat or the like. If I could, I no doubt would, but then on quick reflection, for my type of sailing (and I suspect 95% of others), prudence in the finance department would still make me think again. The fact is, that Bavaria have got it right for the masses, hence their MASSIVE increase in sales (and why many other production boat builders will have to follow suit or go out of business). You are right Old Salt, the weakest part of the package is perhaps the interior, but do not be misled by the scribes, it is still very acceptable indeed.

The end result of these building techniques?? I had delivered in January, a brand new Bav 36, with the bigger 2030 engine (bigger at 29 hp? - I'm used to 560!!), in - mast furling, heating, fridge, radio/CD, £5000 of electronics/nav equipment, inboard autopilot, canvass cockpit enclosure, and a myriad of other bits and pieces for....£74881.00. No wonder Opal Marine took some 275 Bavaria orders at the SBS last year!!

No doubt all the old boys with their traditional craft will fire back all sorts of arguments about this, but the fact remains that Bavaria are doing it right for MOST people. In our Marina there are a lot of Bavarias, and no owner has a bad word to say about them - their sales can only continue to rocket upwards at the expense of those who do not change their production techniques to follow suit.

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[AndrewB]

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What do you mean that you've read it already in another magazine- surely they never repeat articles do they?

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Wasn't it the SAME magazine, back in Sept 2001*? And that article was even more critical. YM hacks are showing no proper gratitude for all these expenses-paid trips to Germany, clearly!

*(Sept 2000?)

 

[tcm]

Why they use sealant

Of course, CNC machines can cut to fine tolerances. But GRP moulded items, especially very large ones, can vary, which much less control over internal dimensions than sawn ply. The answer would be to fit everything individually, or use sealant filler here and there. However , I think Bavaria is not different from many other manufacturer in that respect. I belive that their price reduction is partly through value engineering (slightly cutting standard spec, economising where they could), and partly through financial engineering, gearing up to make hundreds of boats 20%+ cheaper than other similar sized boats.

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[nicho]

The original visit was by PBO's David Harding, who it seems, cannot hide his dislike for modern production boats (of any sort). If showing a bit more mastic (and believe me it is very little) saves scores of £thousands, then Bavaria have a very bright future indeed!!

I'm off to the boat for two weeks now, so I'll leave you all to it!!



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[tcm]

Re: Norton v Honda all over again

I've not read the article, but it sounds fun.

Similar article appeared all over the press about jap-crap. The japs used nasty crossheads where the brits used stainless allen bolts. But the japs were able to afford decent tools when they became available , so the things rattled less and cost less, and the "better" brit bikes couldn't compete.

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[tony_brighton]

Couldn't agree more - getting really bored of this tired old carping on about Bavs (used to be Jeneteaus or Jeanneaus before that).

No doubt someone will come on here wittering on about how they wouldn't cross the Atlantic in a hurricane in one and that their trusty old heavy 'proper' boat would be fine - and that would be a load of horse manure as well.

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[tome]

Nicho

Don't raise to the bait on this! Bavarias are good boats with top-rate equipment and they certainly wouldn't be selling them in such quantities if they were bad boats.

There's no boat in the world which will suit all, and we all have our preferences. I paid about the same as you for a boat built in 89 because that is my personal choice of an ideal boat (and SWMBO approved on viewing!).

Glad to see you're enjoying it - haven't yet seen you in the Solent but keeping a lookout.

Happy sailing
Tom

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[AndrewB]

Oh, OK then, we won\'t mention ...

'On-y-va', the Bavaria 38 used by Raytheon for its advertising, whose keel broke off after a grounding on the Brambles Bank in moderate conditions, and then the mast fell down. (YM Sept 2001, page 7).

Never mind the Atlantic, what about the Solent!

 

[Andy_H]

I'm with you all the way on tis one Nicho. I've got a year old Bavaria 32 and am very happy with it with it. We started looking at seconhand Moodys, westerlys etc., but couldn't bring ourselves to spend £40k on something which was pretty tatty when for another £10k or so we could have a nice new Bavaria 32 with lots of goodies.
Bavaria bashing is very fashionable on this and other forums at the moment but hey, who cares. Let them get on with it till they find something else to knock while we just enjoy our boats.

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[Evadne]

You're right, of course. Just because I sail a very pretty and well built (grp) boat doesn't mean I or anyone else that should demean those who sail great white plastic boats of whale-like proportions (some of them stick so far out of the water you need a ladder to get back on board!) that are held together with mastic and rivets. Just because I like the old-fashioned look, the feel of real wood seats and the solidity that comes from a builder who didn't realise that fibreglass didn't need to be reinforced like a wooden boat, doesn't mean that I should be critical of boats that go faster, are drier to the touch, protect you from the weather, possess a working inboard engine but are unlikely to be around in 50 years time. Whatever happened to string and sealing wax? (If you know of a good supplier....)

Vive la difference, and if you think your boat is better, in whatever way, thank goodness for those unfortunates who sail uglier/flimsier/etc. boats that you can compare yours against so favourably.

Chalkie


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[wakeup]

The reason they bash the Bavs

Is cos if they didn't then the 'Old Salts' wouldn't have a reason to try to justifiy ridiculous second hand prices for their rotting 'solidly built' old tubs. I've seen many of these 'solidly built' 10 plus year olf boats that try to fetch as much as new boat . What is it with 'Old Salt' boat owners, they think that because they have a 'brand' it doesn't matter if they are stinking inside. Ever tried to sell a brand car in a stinking condition at top book. Anyway most people I know that sail never go out in anything other than fair weather and therefore and never likely to need indestructable boats, although I wouldn't personally like to put some of these 'old salts' boat to the test on this becasue they usually are completely skin flint on the maintenance and would fall to pieces after the first big wave. End of rant. Leave the Bavs owners to their own devices and let the 'Old salts' carry on believing their 10+ year old, mouldy, poorly maintained boats are still worth a lot, well to other 'Old Salts' at least. You don't hear the same arguments about cars. 10 year old cars are generally heavier than today's modern equivalent, they used heavier materials and bigger cross sections of steel. Which cars do you think are more likely to fail ENCAP tests today??? Just becasue somehting is lighter and uses modern materials that of course are cheaper in large runs doesn't mean they are weaker. Mixin resins was more of an art than a science 15 years ago. Your more likely to get a stronger piece of fg these days for alighter weight because of improvements in resins and lay up. Bored now....

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[Evadne]

Re: The reason they bash the Bavs

10+ years old? that's nearly new in my book...

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[tony_brighton]

Re: Oh, OK then, we won\'t mention ...

and here comes the old On-Y-Va story as well....

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[Andy_H]

I don't think I made any comment about anyone elses boat! I just said that I like mine and I'm tired of people criticising my choice. I agree that the Elizabethan is a pretty boat, but I just don't happen to want to own one. Nor do I critcize you because you do.
Each to his own but why the need to continually jibe and critiscse?

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[ParaHandy]

Re: Why they use sealant

I think we've been here afore noo ... The only way they can get the moulding (which is delivered like bulk tupperware pots from somewhere inside old iron curtain countries) to fit the CNC manufactured interiors, is to compress the shape by jig around the CNC components? That is, the hull mouldings are "sprung". Now that implies that the strength comes from the internal bulkheads since if the hull was too stiff, you couldn't easily manipulate the shape. If that's so, then the sealant is merely a trimming but one wonders how strong the hulls are and the loading the keel will tolerate ....

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[warrior40]

Re:each to his own

You can't help but marvel at a company who builds a new boat st such a startlingly competitive price, and I have even been through a period myself when I wondered wheather I should be considering one, but..
After visiting the LIBS in Jan and having a good look in and around the Bavs on the stand there, I was astonished at the poor quality of woodwork and general fit out. After looking at these and going to see a Benetau 50 next, I was amazed to find myself thinking that the Benetau absoloutley oozed quality compared to the Bavs. 47
Sure , they fit top notch equipment, but remember you can always change the gear but not the boat. Would you buy a Scoda/lada etc, just because it had Pirelli tyres and a decent stereo??
But, I agree that for some purposes, solent pottering? weekending and occasional hols, they are fine for that role and to this end why should people not buy them? Indeed when faced witha 25 year old Westerly Fulmar for the same price, who can blame them. Anyway the woodwork will be as good as that expensive IKEA kitchen that SHMBO made you buy! You didn't consider employing a skilled cabinet maker to design and build that now did you and it still serves its purpose

Happy sailing, what ever boat you are on this wkend

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[snooks]

Boat building is changing

When we visited the factory in 2001 (printed Aug 2001) Bavaria was one of the most modern boat builders in the world and that was BEFORE they expanded. They had just purchased the land on which to build their factory and told us of their plans, therefore when the new factory opened we were keen to see the differences and pass them on

Now, just 2 years down the track they are improving their workflow even more...when we visited in 2001 they had 1 CNC machine which cut out all the holes in the deck, right down the the screw holes for all the fittings...now they have robots spraying on gel coat and 2 x CNC machines...not to mention doubling the amount of boats they can produce.

Just because they pay for part of our trip, it doesn't mean we're in their debt, having been round a dozen or so boat yards in the past few years, Bavaria is one of few who are expanding their operation to cope with the demand for their boats, and therefore reducing waiting times.

If there is another boat builder that is advancing as fast as Bavaria I'd like to know about it ....if you go back to the "under the skin" series which was run in Yachting World a few years ago you'll see many differences in a few yards, but you might be surprised how few have actually moved on with the exception of CNC woodwork which most yard have adopted. Few if any can produce 2000 more boats than 2 years ago and that's one of the reasons we went back

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[oldsalt]

Oooh, I've touched a sore nerve here. I sugested that the furniture was not built to the same tolerances as the rest of the boat, and I get replies from defensive Bav owners. Of course if you spend £000's on a boat you are not going to publicize it's shortcomings, after all one day you will want to sell it.

However I have been on Bav's several times and the interior is very poorly made once you look beyond the varnsh and veneer. Handholds are self tapped on, and the impression is one of an interior which will not stand the test of time. More seriously is their poor sailing preformance in strong winds. Arguably tthis does not matter if you use it as a marina and light wind boat, but one can be caught out in bad weather. At the end of the day you get what you pay for, I will be very interested to see their used prices in 5 years time.

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[billmacfarlane]

Have you tried sailing a HR, Naiad etc ? They're dead boring. Stick to your Bav. They're fundamentally sound and the latest ones sounds as if they're fun to sail. You can't ask for more really. One last question. Why do Bav owners always apologise for their boats ? Bavaria have only commited one crime in British eyes - that of success. Now that's one thing us Brits really dislike,

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