Bavaria Keel problem - Who'd test their boat like this?

Re: Bavaria Keel problem - Who\'d test their boat like this?

You're missing the point. If keel "calculation"and design were a completely understood science then why do modern keels detach and become loose?

They don't - at least not production boats. Thousands upon thousands never have any problems with their keels.

Can't think of any that "fell off" in normal use - that is failing to cope with the loads for which they were designed. I can think of a few that were badly designed and/or built - for example several models of Westerlys 30-40 years ago, many where clearly they had been subject to loads for which they were designed and some where the problem was individual to the boat.

However, it is not systemic - that is it exists across a wide range of designs and is definitely not restricted to "modern" keels as I explained earlier. Attaching a heavy lump of lead or iron to the bottom of a boat has always been potentially problematic - I have had more keel problems with my long keel boat than either of my two "modern" fin keels.

As the evidence shows the problem today is mainly on boats that are raced or intensively sailed and almost always have had groundings or hit other objects. If you know that is going to happen then choose a boat that is less likely to suffer damage. However in doing so you rule out keel types that give a performance advantage, and as performance is central to competitive sailing, most owners don't go down that route.

The focus is always on the negatives - that is a juicy little incident that immediately starts a chorus of derision aimed at designers and builders when invariably it is the user who is most responsible, and ignores all the other, vast majority of boats which perform exactly as the designer and builder intended.
 
Re: Bavaria Keel problem - Who\'d test their boat like this?


But you have to ask yourself just how accurate this reporting is. For example, the claim "Equally shocking is the story of a charter boat that lost her keel after hitting rocks in the Isles of Scilly, but went on to complete three charters and more than 100 miles of cruising before anyone noticed that the 37-footer had no keel." How many of us believe that a boat could do 3 charters with no keel, unless it was a mobo?
 
Re: Bavaria Keel problem - Who\'d test their boat like this?

But you have to ask yourself just how accurate this reporting is. For example, the claim "Equally shocking is the story of a charter boat that lost her keel after hitting rocks in the Isles of Scilly, but went on to complete three charters and more than 100 miles of cruising before anyone noticed that the 37-footer had no keel." How many of us believe that a boat could do 3 charters with no keel, unless it was a mobo?

You are quite right to question the accuracy. The yacht to which Matt was referring was a Sun Odyssey 37 called P******m and my recollection of the story at the time was that it only completed two charters without its keel. The first, during which the charterers hit a rock in the Scillies and then amazingly sailed downwind back to base. And the second when I think there was no wind all week and the charterer motored everywhere. It was during the third charter that the charterer complained of lousy handling and the lack of keel was discovered.
 
Re: Bavaria Keel problem - Who\'d test their boat like this?

You are quite right to question the accuracy. The yacht to which Matt was referring was a Sun Odyssey 37 called P******m and my recollection of the story at the time was that it only completed two charters without its keel. The first, during which the charterers hit a rock in the Scillies and then amazingly sailed downwind back to base. And the second when I think there was no wind all week and the charterer motored everywhere. It was during the third charter that the charterer complained of lousy handling and the lack of keel was discovered.

I can't imagine a sailboat being anywhere near stable without a keel, even without wind.
 
Re: Bavaria Keel problem - Who\'d test their boat like this?

I can't imagine a sailboat being anywhere near stable without a keel, even without wind.

It was a huge story at the time, a couple of years ago .... surely you must remember it?

If I recall correctly, the charter company employed divers who found the keel where it had been knocked off a couple of charters earlier.

Richard
 
Re: Bavaria Keel problem - Who\'d test their boat like this?

But you have to ask yourself just how accurate this reporting is. For example, the claim "Equally shocking is the story of a charter boat that lost her keel after hitting rocks in the Isles of Scilly, but went on to complete three charters and more than 100 miles of cruising before anyone noticed that the 37-footer had no keel." How many of us believe that a boat could do 3 charters with no keel, unless it was a mobo?

According that report "Currently, the list includes 72 cases since 1984, and in those 24 lives have been lost – ". I wonder how many boats have been lost during that time due to faulty seacocks or seacocks being left open and exposing another vulnerability?
 
Re: Bavaria Keel problem - Who\'d test their boat like this?

Then you dont know about Thames Spritsail Barges and Sailing Punts!

Both have no keels and are flat bottomed and have stiffness due to their flat wide shape.

Sure, but they're not typical bareboat charter material, are they?:rolleyes:
 
Re: Bavaria Keel problem - Who\'d test their boat like this?

Then you dont know about Thames Spritsail Barges and Sailing Punts!

Both have no keels and are flat bottomed and have stiffness due to their flat wide shape.

Maybe you do not know them as well as you think. There are some good videos on u Tube of the Dutch equivalents capsizing in races, flat bottom of the likes found on a sailing barge is not inherently stable when the wind is up.

A flat bottomed boat capsize, oh dear https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqneuY-hVMk

About 'Reminder' http://www.nationalhistoricships.org.uk/register/1966/reminder

In that 1929 Thames Match it blew hard and REMINDER, which had yet to carry a cargo, was engaged in a tussle with her sister PORTLIGHT, which culminated in the latter’s mast going overboard. As retold by Hervey Benham in ‘Down Tops’l’, Jim Stone, REMINDER's skipper, reckoned that was the hardest race he was ever in. His barge was ready to capsize at any moment going up the Lower Hope. She began a sickening, unnatural, lurching roll, and he told a hand to stand by the tops’l halyard. Over she began to go, and only the order ‘Down tops’l!’ saved her.

The RYA handbook book on stability, for example, explains all, with pictures, why flat bottomed boats can become unstable quite quickly.
 
Re: Bavaria Keel problem - Who\'d test their boat like this?

Sure, but they're not typical bareboat charter material, are they?:rolleyes:

Your statement was not specific. You said " I cant imagine a sailboat being anywhere stable without a keel, even without wind "

I pointed out that two types of keeless sailboat were. Dutch sailing barges also. As on the Thames Barges, their leeboards were to offset leeway, not for stability.

They got that from their wide, flat bottoms and square sides combined with an easily adjusted sail rig in the case of the Spritsail Barge.

Ergo, sailboats CAN be stable and keeless.
 
Re: Bavaria Keel problem - Who\'d test their boat like this?

Maybe you do not know them as well as you think. There are some good videos on u Tube of the Dutch equivalents capsizing in races, flat bottom of the likes found on a sailing barge is not inherently stable when the wind is up.

A flat bottomed boat capsize, oh dear https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqneuY-hVMk

About 'Reminder' http://www.nationalhistoricships.org.uk/register/1966/reminder



The RYA handbook book on stability, for example, explains all, with pictures, why flat bottomed boats can become unstable quite quickly.

I completely understand where you are coming from, but these Dutch vessels were engaged in racing and were being sailed to within-and above-their capabilities.

When they were engaged in trade and fishing, their designed purpose, they were the ideal vessel for the shoal conditions around their coastline.
 

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