Bavaria Keel problem - Who'd test their boat like this?

Re: Bavaria Keel problem - Who\'d test their boat like this?

erm its a bit of a namby pamby woofter test, but its proving a point
 
Re: Bavaria Keel problem - Who\'d test their boat like this?

Is it a Bavaria?

The keel is quite deep, but all the deep keel variants I saw of the period were shaped like dagger boards and certainly nothing like the bolt-on shoe as seen.

The standard iron keels are far more shallow in profile and have a differently shaped bulg cast into the end of the keel.

In case anyone is wondering it is not a deep keel on a Bavaria Match. These were designed for a rule that penalized flared keels.
 
Re: Bavaria Keel problem - Who\'d test their boat like this?

Bit of a pointless test - they cannot put anywhere near the force on the keel that simply heeling the boat will achieve ...
Did look a bit wobbly though!!
 
Re: Bavaria Keel problem - Who\'d test their boat like this?

I think it is someone demonstrating the keel problem with the very early Match series.

The next video on U-Tube on making Bavarias was much more interesting!
 
Re: Bavaria Keel problem - Who\'d test their boat like this?

The hull form does look awfully like a Bavaria Match, but the only keels I've seen were without the bulb though thicker at the tip than the root. As you say they were designed to compete under IMS not IRC.
 
Re: Bavaria Keel problem - Who\'d test their boat like this?

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I think it is someone demonstrating the keel problem with the very early Match series.

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I don't think so.

The Match series was designed to rate well under IMS and the examples I have seen do not have bulbs on the end of the keel.

My second reason for doubting we are looking at Match in the video is because I commissioned my own stress testing on the keel of my Match 35 3.5 years ago when speculation on the subject was at its height.

Under the trained eye of the most recognisable name in UK small boat surveying my boat was repeatedly lowered, onto its keel from the slings of the Lymington Yacht Haven travel hoist.

While holding a straight metal edge to the hull the surveyor said he could not see any deformation in the hull around the keel root as tons of hull weight were transferred onto the keel. He went on to say this is unusual for fin keel yachts. While inspecting the internal keel mounting he said there was a degree of over engineering and expense which was unusual for a Bavaria. Such comments from this surveyor were of particular significance because he is not shy about voicing his dislike of Bavarias in general and this while actually talking to a Bavaria owner!

Finally I have conducted my own inadvertent keel mounting stress testing over the past 4 seasons, including:

1 - Horrible bucking bronko ride down the Alderney race at springs with too much sail up in 25kts. I was solo at the time and it felt safer to hang on rather than reef.

2 - This year I went through the Portland Race at the wrong time and place, in a F5-F6. The forces transmitted into the hull/keel joint by the confused seas were way in excess of that daft video test.

People use the internet for hidden agendas. Does anyone recall the prat from Brazil who claimed on this forum that the keel fell off his Bav 36 cruiser while he was on passage and that he did not notice until he was back in dock?
 
Re: Bavaria Keel problem - Who\'d test their boat like this?

That's no test at all. Most keels will flex like this if you shake them. So do the wings of a plane - the tips of a 747s wings go up and down a LOT..... The test is if they break when under stress - in a yacht it's when pushed really hard under sail, and in a plane it's during severe turbulence.
 
Re: Bavaria Keel problem - Who\'d test their boat like this?

The keel is wobbling because they've grounded, and the hull has a crack in it. I don't speak Dutch, but I imagine the word 'crack' has a similar meaning to the English.
 
Re: Bavaria Keel problem - Who\'d test their boat like this?

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That's no test at all. Most keels will flex like this if you shake them.

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I would'nt take up a career as a yacht surveyor if I were you!
 
Re: Bavaria Keel problem - Who\'d test their boat like this?

Having delivered a Match 35 across the baltic earlier this year - I can honestly say that it is a boat that I was not happy about.

Before we even pressed her under sail - the mast was pumping and vibrating inside the cabin such that the drumming became unbearable.
Lack of toe-rail lip where most needed making going on deck IMHO dangerous.

Those were just the two first obvious areas ...
 
Re: Bavaria Keel problem - Who\'d test their boat like this?

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Before we even pressed her under sail - the mast was pumping and vibrating inside the cabin such that the drumming became unbearable.

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Bavaria agents are clueless when it comes to setting up a performance mast with rod rigging. I recognise some of the mast drumming symptoms, these largely went away after the rig was set up properly.

Re. mast pumping (panting?), yes this happens under load in a chop. A tweeky performance mast without runners is going to do this but now we are discussing a broader range of modern performance yachts.

The Match 35 has 2 or 3 rig design changes. On my Sparcraft mast there is extra stiffening welded on near the top, later Bavaria switched to Selden. All of which means it is difficult to comment on the rig setup problem experienced on the Match you delivered.
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Lack of toe-rail lip where most needed making going on deck IMHO dangerous.

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Obviously this is a concious design decision made to appeal to racing crews who spend hours sitting out on the weather rail. A teak foot block just outboard of the genoa winches is an useful owner mod.
 
Re: Bavaria Keel problem - Who\'d test their boat like this?

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Before we even pressed her under sail - the mast was pumping and vibrating inside the cabin such that the drumming became unbearable.

[/ QUOTE ]
Bavaria agents are clueless when it comes to setting up a performance mast with rod rigging. I recognise some of the mast drumming symptoms, these largely went away after the rig was set up properly.

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The boat was bought from Waarnemunde Marina in Rostock. The boat being ex charter. On boarding the boat - I immediately smelt resin, the boat was poorly prepared, charter company insisted on a 1 hour max hand-over - despite protestations that issues needed to be resolved.

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Re. mast pumping (panting?), yes this happens under load in a chop. A tweeky performance mast without runners is going to do this but now we are discussing a broader range of modern performance yachts.

The Match 35 has 2 or 3 rig design changes. On my Sparcraft mast there is extra stiffening welded on near the top, later Bavaria switched to Selden. All of which means it is difficult to comment on the rig setup problem experienced on the Match you delivered.

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This was serious and as an experienced Surveyor and race yottie ... I looked at all possible to explain it. I agree that set-up given the style of hand-over from sellers leads one to agree.

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Lack of toe-rail lip where most needed making going on deck IMHO dangerous.

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Obviously this is a concious design decision made to appeal to racing crews who spend hours sitting out on the weather rail. A teak foot block just outboard of the genoa winches is an useful owner mod.

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Given money paid - why an owner mod ?

When we went to reef the main - the rams horn couldn't be used properly as we couldn't release the sail slugs from the mast. So sail was turned over the horn - meaning hook pressing into the cloth.
Back-end of boom reef-lines couldn't be sweated up without going to mast - this allied to rams horn tack defeating the whole idea.

I had 4 days non-stop trip on the boat. The only berth worth using was the stern cabin one - as main saloon berths were so narrow. Fwd cabin was basically storage.

Sorry to voice MY view .. each likes their own and its good that we all differ. I would hate everyone to want Hilyards, Nicholsons etc. - the prices would go up !!
Bavs along with some other makes do come in for an unfair amount of stick, I would guess that majority who voice such have never sailed one or been closer than walking the pontoon and cocking a snoot as they walked past.

I've seen Westerly's with seriously crazed keel mount areas where penny washers were used. I seen other "respected" makes with skewed keels - one had exploded it's keel bed with expanded iron ballast.
 
Re: Bavaria Keel problem - Who\'d test their boat like this?

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I immediately smelt resin

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It takes 3 years before the smell goes.

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"Foot blocks" Given money paid - why an owner mod ?

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Well personal preference comes into play here. I looked at a new 2008 Dufour racer/cruiser and the factory fitted teak toe-rail has such a small cross section I would not trust it as a foot block.

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"mast" This was serious and as an experienced Surveyor and race yottie ... I looked at all possible to explain it.

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My rig arrived with barely any prebend set. More prebend and counter tension on the lowers stiffens the mast and reduces vibration in harbour. Leaving some kicker tension on helps as well.

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the rams horn couldn't be used properly as we couldn't release the sail slugs from the mast.

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The Match range was supplied without a sail wardrobe so who knows what poorly fitted sailed were on the yacht you delivered? The reefing cringles on my Kemps made main hook into the horns without problem, there is no need to remove slugs from the mast track. Opening up the track exit slot should be a 30 second job anyhow.

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Back-end of boom reef-lines couldn't be sweated up without going to mast

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Again I don't recognise this problem. More usually when reefing I have to remind myself not to crank up the clew reefing pennant tension to a main halyard level.

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I had 4 days non-stop trip on the boat. The only berth worth using was the stern cabin one - as main saloon berths were so narrow.

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Strange! Narrow sea berths are usually rated as a bonus at sea. The Match 35 saloon berths are about 6' 4" and 6' 8" long, in harbour it takes a minute to pop off the backrests for extra width. Hinged back rests would be more convenient but hey it is meant to be a racer/cruiser.

Anyhow it is encouraging to note that after 4 days at sea a pro surveyor and practicing yachtsman can only find fault with some equipment problems specific to that yacht and other inconveniences specific to the requirements of a performance design.
 
Re: Bavaria Keel problem - Who\'d test their boat like this?

No keel should do that!
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Of course it shouldn't!
For those who don't know, this was one of several failures on Bavarias which, when examined, showed that the keel was bolted to part of the structure that actually parted company with the reinforcing members that were supposed to be there to stop it from flexing. Bavarias defence at the time (in one case at least) was that the vessel had run aground and had been damaged because of misuse that it was not designed to take. That's like saying "It's like crashing your car into a tree.... not the makers fault"
That raises an interesting point. What degree of misuse should a yacht be designed to take? There was an interesting set of videos on here a while ago about another manufacturer DELIBERATELY running his yacht into an underwater obstruction at high speed. I personally think that as s**t happens, the boat should not suffer serious structural damage when it does. Others (mostly Bav owners I think) have agreed with Bavarias attitude and think it is quite reasonable. Personally I don't !! I also think it ridiculous that people say openly that that sort of flexing is in any way normal. It's NOT an aeroplane wing which is built to flex. It's a solid casting!! That flexing you see is the bottom of the boat flexing!!! Get real people. That boat is one step away from catastrophic structural failure and in no way is this "normal"!!
 
Re: Bavaria Keel problem - Who\'d test their boat like this?

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That's no test at all. Most keels will flex like this if you shake them.

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You must be joking!
 
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