Bavaria in administration?

[Tranona]

Absolutely. Although I work as a university lecturer, my current speciality is knowledge transfer, which basically means getting people inside and outside universities to talk to each other. Neither HE nor business exist in a void; both need the other and both need the financial world as well. Dare I say that the German propensity for investment in research seems to be driven largely by a rather different financial attitude (short term vs long term) there?

Suspect it is more to do with the balance of economic activity. Not much R&D required for services. Probably if you break down the sectors you will find big differences between the two countries with UK strong in Life Sciences, aerospace and digital for example and Germany in hard engineering related to automotive and industrial machinery.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Could be a interesting thread if we can get past you must have a degree to be an engineer.

For some reason we (UK) did a total U turn in education in the late 60's / 70's, the Germans did not, keeping the old system for training engineers for instance from what I read.

German requirements for professional engineering training are far fiercer than ours. A Dipl.Ing. takes 6 3/4 years - and there was a hell of a fuss when it was reduced from 7 years a while back. Compared to that, our four year integrated masters are a bit of a joke - a Dipl.Ing. includes a research stage which would in most cases be worthy of a doctorate here.

On the other hand, Germany also takes the training of technician engineers very seriously, and accords them (once trained) a respect which you rarely see here. We've tried an intermediate with IEng (which needs a BEng), but I'm not convinced it has helped much. The rush to convert perfectly good HNDs to rather weak degrees in England was not well thought out.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Suspect it is more to do with the balance of economic activity. Not much R&D required for services. Probably if you break down the sectors you will find big differences between the two countries with UK strong in Life Sciences, aerospace and digital for example and Germany in hard engineering related to automotive and industrial machinery.

Good point. I presented the awards at a biotech sector bash last year (contact my agent ...) and there was clearly a LOT of money flowing into R&D there.

 

[Blue Sunray]

On the other hand, Germany also takes the training of technician engineers very seriously, and accords them (once trained) a respect which you rarely see here.

For instance today's Daily Telegraph (to be fair never a bastion of correct use of terminology) referred repeatedly to Engineers employed to cut down trees alongside railway lines.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Maybe they were, it’s a job, pay good as well and free firewood.

Seriously though, I get degree qualified engineers in my drill crews as Roustabouts, great pay, great time off, zero responsibility beyond wielding a tape measure from time to time.

 

[JumbleDuck]

For instance today's Daily Telegraph (to be fair never a bastion of correct use of terminology) referred repeatedly to Engineers employed to cut down trees alongside railway lines.

I think we've lost that argument. I'm not sure if that's a bad thing, but I do think it's a shame that "technician" doesn't have a higher status in the UK.

 

[Tranona]

The rush to convert perfectly good HNDs to rather weak degrees in England was not well thought out.

Agree having been involved in designing the "top up" degrees - but there are HNDs and HNDs and that qualification in itself was revised over the years as were many degrees) to reflect the changes in the base knowledge of the intake. When considering engineers for entry to MBA I was invariably impressed with the quality of "old style" HNDs.

Perhaps the new emphasis on science and technology in schools will lead to an improvement in the quality of intake into engineering degrees and a general improvement in standards and status.

 

[dom]

Dom
It has been a pleasure for us retired bankers to read your posts on this thread. Can't understand a word of it, but great to see a friendly debate of such sophistication.
All the best from a warm Gokova Korfesi.
Peter

So MapisM is sitting in Milan @21C + sunny. and you in 28C today according to the Met. Thick cloud here in London, lashing rain, and 9C with an overnight low of 3C. What was that poker expression again, "When you don't know who is the fool at the table, it must be ....:ambivalence:"

But I agree, great to see the moboers on here sometimes and makes for interesting discussions.

 

[Blue Sunray]

Perhaps the new emphasis on science and technology in schools will lead to an improvement in the quality of intake into engineering degrees and a general improvement in standards and status.

I've obviously missed something, what new emphasis?

 

[dom]

Absolutely. Although I work as a university lecturer, my current speciality is knowledge transfer, which basically means getting people inside and outside universities to talk to each other. Neither HE nor business exist in a void; both need the other and both need the financial world as well. Dare I say that the German propensity for investment in research seems to be driven largely by a rather different financial attitude (short term vs long term) there?

I agree with your "void" point and also your observation re different financial attitudes. Steve Jobs once called in all of the senior managers regarding Apple's R&D outcomes; frowning he observed that not a single R&D project had ended in total failure over the last 12 months; "We're losing our edge as a tech innovator!", he groaned.

German industry truly strives on being the best and most ingenious even in banal areas; hence those Wago connectors which you are now using

In fact, this differential attitude between the UK and the US/Germany has been around for a long time. After the Battle of Jutland - an initial PR disaster for the MoD - the UK propaganda machine eventually decided upon an image of a shell with the strap-line, "Not made in Germany!"

But as you say in another post biotech, especially within the medical sphere, is an area where true innovation is funded and welcomed in the UK. There are also several UK universities doing world-breaking research into algae and the contribution they could make to energy and food sustainability.

Interestingly - and remember I'm not British so no axe to grind - foreign top class engineering, tech and industrial operations (Airbus, BMW, Siemens, Nissan, Google, etc) often remark on the high efficiency of their UK operations. As you and others have alluded, this so often stems from their confidence to tap into a group of top-flight workers who are not very well regarded in the UK.

The trick the UK faces is to reinforce this trend as it steps back from the EU - it's certainly possible, but requires smart and long-term policies.

 

[halcyon]

I think we've lost that argument. I'm not sure if that's a bad thing, but I do think it's a shame that "technician" doesn't have a higher status in the UK.

That's the big difference from when I started my apprenticeship, we all started on a equal footing at 16, having been selected on engineering ability. After 2 years basic training and assessment you may go to tech or university, but you all finished as engineers, qualification was not a factor.

Ten years on we now see the arrival of graduate apprentices, selected on A level results and going straight to uni. Result we are relying on teachers to teach science and technology, but that's not engineering, in fact have the teachers been in a engineering, or just done a course.

In the past we developed engineering ability, now we try and teach engineering.

Brian

 

[JumbleDuck]

That's the big difference from when I started my apprenticeship, we all started on a equal footing at 16, having been selected on engineering ability. After 2 years basic training and assessment you may go to tech or university, but you all finished as engineers, qualification was not a factor.

Ten years on we now see the arrival of graduate apprentices, selected on A level results and going straight to uni.

I don't knock the old apprentice route, but graduate entry to engineering without an apprenticeship has been a thing for well over a hundred years now. They are both good routes and, because engineering is such a broad church, both useful for different types of career. The higher levels of management in German engineering firms are dominated by Dipl.Ings, which is about as academic a route as you'll find.

In the UK it's almost forty years since the Finniston Report which, amongst other things, identified a need for enhanced four-year degrees (now the MEng) and for more Engineering+Management joint degrees.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

I agree with your "void" point and also your observation re different financial attitudes. Steve Jobs once called in all of the senior managers regarding Apple's R&D outcomes; frowning he observed that not a single R&D project had ended in total failure over the last 12 months; "We're losing our edge as a tech innovator!", he groaned.

German industry truly strives on being the best and most ingenious even in banal areas; hence those Wago connectors which you are now using

In fact, this differential attitude between the UK and the US/Germany has been around for a long time. After the Battle of Jutland - an initial PR disaster for the MoD - the UK propaganda machine eventually decided upon an image of a shell with the strap-line, "Not made in Germany!"

But as you say in another post biotech, especially within the medical sphere, is an area where true innovation is funded and welcomed in the UK. There are also several UK universities doing world-breaking research into algae and the contribution they could make to energy and food sustainability.

Interestingly - and remember I'm not British so no axe to grind - foreign top class engineering, tech and industrial operations (Airbus, BMW, Siemens, Nissan, Google, etc) often remark on the high efficiency of their UK operations. As you and others have alluded, this so often stems from their confidence to tap into a group of top-flight workers who are not very well regarded in the UK.

The trick the UK faces is to reinforce this trend as it steps back from the EU - it's certainly possible, but requires smart and long-term policies.

The success of Germany is not to do with it's education system, something that I believed. I recently read an article that it has everything to do with the Governments attitude to external marketing and their SMEs. The SME in Germany is king and there is a significant relationship between the government, the SMEs and influencing foreign governments to buy their products. That is the differentiator.

This is more Lounge material than Scuttlebutt.

 

[Rob_Webb]

Back to the realities of the current situation.

Anyone here got a new Bavaria on order?

My friend has and it seems to be getting messy...

Trying to cut through the all noise and pontification here... anyone else got practical advice / experience of having a new boat on order when he company goes wobbly like this?

 

[pvb]

Trying to cut through the all noise and pontification here... anyone else got practical advice / experience of having a new boat on order when he company goes wobbly like this?

In most cases, the buyer's contract is with a dealer, and I'd be much more concerned about the dealer going bust. I bought my new Bavaria 4 years ago through a UK dealer, but had some ongoing warranty issues which the dealer wouldn't sort, so I got them sorted and sent them the bill. They didn't pay, so I sued them. Surprise, surprise, the limited company I bought from ceased trading and I couldn't recover any money. The same company is still operating, same people, same premises, under the same name - just without the "Ltd" at the end. Complete cowboys! Perhaps I had a lucky escape, as I had to pay them in full for the boat about 2 weeks before Bavaria released it from the factory; the dealer could have chosen to cease trading then, and I'd have been left with no boat and a big loss. If I ever buy another new boat, I'll insist on some security via bank guarantee, etc.

 

[Blue Sunray]

The same company is still operating, same people, same premises, under the same name - just without the "Ltd" at the end.

Well at least if they are no longer a limited company they can't pull that trick again. (no consolation to you of course)

 

[maby]

In most cases, the buyer's contract is with a dealer, and I'd be much more concerned about the dealer going bust. I bought my new Bavaria 4 years ago through a UK dealer, but had some ongoing warranty issues which the dealer wouldn't sort, so I got them sorted and sent them the bill. They didn't pay, so I sued them. Surprise, surprise, the limited company I bought from ceased trading and I couldn't recover any money. The same company is still operating, same people, same premises, under the same name - just without the "Ltd" at the end. Complete cowboys! Perhaps I had a lucky escape, as I had to pay them in full for the boat about 2 weeks before Bavaria released it from the factory; the dealer could have chosen to cease trading then, and I'd have been left with no boat and a big loss. If I ever buy another new boat, I'll insist on some security via bank guarantee, etc.

You always have the option of insisting that the dealer funds the purchase from the manufacturer through a bank loan - and you accept that the cost of the loan is added to the price you eventually pay. That is the approach that we followed on our last but one boat. We took the view that, if the dealer could not get a bank to trust him with their money for a couple of months, we certainly would not trust him with ours.

The last couple of boats we have bought were stock boats, so far less risk.

 

[Lucky Duck]

When buying my current boat the builder arranged for a bond in the sum of the deposit and two stage payments.

This was charged for separately but IIRC was in the region of £500.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Well at least if they are no longer a limited company they can't pull that trick again. (no consolation to you of course)

Bet you fiver they are now NewCompany Ltd, trading as Old Company.

 

[pvb]

Bet you fiver they are now NewCompany Ltd, trading as Old Company.

No, they're not as it happens. The two crooks who ran the business aren't listed at Companies House with any other directorships. Their website doesn't have "Ltd" anywhere either. And I notice they're now selling new Dufour yachts - buyers beware!