Bavaria in administration?

I guess thats the problem facing boat builders (unlike cars) boats dont really breakdown / scrap easy, from memory when Mr Winter was looking for a Centaur it seemed every yard he went to was overflowing with boats abeit covered in moss and shite but unless someone is going to consciously dispose of the vessel it'll stay there till the end of time or until the yard owner does something. And as many will be only too aware when trying to sell their boat the market is dead / not what it once was because of the glut in supply as well as the economy.

Also factor in the way people sail now (charter instead of ownership), the hollowing-out of the middle classes that'd traditionally own boats, competition from other 'easier' sports / pastimes etc and we'll see alot more sailboat builders go to the wall in the next ten years. IMO the market just cant support the number of 'me too' boat builders thats to say many products from many builders with almost no distinguishable differences not other thing :).
 
Seajet said:
I'd much rather consider and try to calculate the stresses on a fin keeler than the cross beams on a multihull !
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Are there many examples of catamaran beam to hull joint failure that you know of? Do monohull keel to hull joints ever fail? Are there any current major monohull manufacturers that have a bit of a reputation for having produced some dodgy keel to hull connections? Might it depend a bit on the strength of the hull where the keel is bolted? Surely no manufacturer would scrimp on that bit of the hull. I wonder if any mainstream manufacturers, recent or past, have ever got that wrong.
 
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guardian said:
Also factor in the way people sail now (charter instead of ownership), the hollowing-out of the middle classes that'd traditionally own boats, competition from other 'easier' sports / pastimes etc and we'll see alot more sailboat builders go to the wall in the next ten years. IMO the market just cant support the number of 'me too' boat builders thats to say many products from many builders with almost no distinguishable differences not other thing :).
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I agree. To a first approximation, the only private people buying new AWBs are the increasingly elderly remains of the post-war sailing boom generation. Younger people charter, which makes far more sense, but although that creates a charter market it's far smaller than the private owner one, because each boat is used maybe ten times as much.
 
I wonder how Ben/Jen will do.

They seem to survive all the demand waves.

I have a feeling that they have been assisted by the government at times in the past.

I'm still looking for a French train driver job myself.
 
Bavaria have had a bit of a brand problem that’s been difficult to shake off. Wrongly in my opinion but I’m sure it costs them. Particularly as boats grow bigger and more prestigious.

They are the nearest boating equivalent to Skoda in the automotive world and that just gives them one angle, price.

Now that they build boats just as good as other makes their costs are similar but they are forced to squeeze the margins to shift them.

Not a good long term marketing plan.

________________________
 
Daydream believer said:
Try this for a start:-

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Thanks for posting the link but there is no need to search on my behalf for examples of Bavaria failures. I still stand by what I claim, which is based on the lack of a significant issues reported in the press with Bavaria yachts.

When I first saw this reported I did think if this is the post baby boomer changes in society beginning to bite. In the press we read that working people are struggling to leave rented accommodation, the ones that do are buying late, cars are now rented instead of purchased, saving rates are not significant. On the grand scheme of things, yacht ownership is a very limited market. As others have said in this forum, companies like Bavaria made their money on supplying to the charter market, so if that is facing tight margins and lower sales, yacht replacement may not be a high enough rate to sustain. I then look at the likes of two forumites on here who bought a Bavaria a few years ago to replace ageing yachts. This may be their last significant yacht purchase, bought for quality and low maintenance. If they are representative of the ageing yacht owner's attitude to yacht ownership, then that market is drying up as well. I wonder if they have run out of customers because of changes to society, not because their products are crap.
 
BlowingOldBoots said:
Thanks for posting the link but there is no need to search on my behalf for examples of Bavaria failures. I still stand by what I claim, which is based on the lack of a significant issues reported in the press with Bavaria yachts.

When I first saw this reported I did think if this is the post baby boomer changes in society beginning to bite. In the press we read that working people are struggling to leave rented accommodation, the ones that do are buying late, cars are now rented instead of purchased, saving rates are not significant. On the grand scheme of things, yacht ownership is a very limited market. As others have said in this forum, companies like Bavaria made their money on supplying to the charter market, so if that is facing tight margins and lower sales, yacht replacement may not be a high enough rate to sustain. I then look at the likes of two forumites on here who bought a Bavaria a few years ago to replace ageing yachts. This may be their last significant yacht purchase, bought for quality and low maintenance. If they are representative of the ageing yacht owner's attitude to yacht ownership, then that market is drying up as well. I wonder if they have run out of customers because of changes to society, not because their products are crap.
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This
 
shaunksb said:
They are the nearest boating equivalent to Skoda in the automotive world and that just gives them one angle, price.
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Agreed, apart from the marque. Unlike Skoda, Bavaria don't have to deal with a period in their history when they made (had to make) very cheap and cheerful boats. I'd say that they are more like Ford or Vauxhall. Their products are well designed, well-made, popular with fleet buyers ... and completely non-aspirational. Nobody has ever said "What I really, really want is ... (pause, sigh) ... a Ford Mondeo" and nobody has ever said "What I really, really want is ... (pause, sigh) ... a Bavaria".

That matters, because apart from the elderly for whom boat ownership is normal, buying is now an aspirational thing. Quite apart from the financial inanity, who dreams of buying a boat just like the ones they can rent? For younger buyers a boat has to be special to be bought and Bavarias, for all their excellent qualities, are not special.
 
AngusMcDoon said:
..........Do monohull keel to hull joints ever fail? Are there any current major monohull manufacturers that have a bit of a reputation for having produced some dodgy keel to hull connections? Might it depend a bit on the strength of the hull where the keel is bolted? Surely no manufacturer would scrimp on that bit of the hull. I wonder if any mainstream manufacturers, recent or past, have ever got that wrong.
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Some models of Westerly are well known for failures of twin keels, mainly Centaurs, Berwicks and Pentlands on mud berths. Strange thing is it doesn't stop people buying them and the mods to strengthen them are straight forward. Bavarias OTOH, which have most likely had far fewer keel failures are seen by many as fragile build to be avoided.
 
Daydream believer said:
Actually if one does a search In the past, they have had a reputation for some quite un-nerving design features such as flexing hulls & keel failures. My post was directed at the one by " Blowingoldboots" where he made the comment that they were "very reliable". I really wanted to point out that they were not quite so incident free as one might have thought. But I am not suggesting that they are any worse or better than those in that budget range.

However, I certainly do not think that having a keel fall off is making a mountain out of a mole hole. It has not just been their race boats that this has happened to. Neither can one use the excuse " Well it's a race boat" for the keel falling off.

That being said I nearly bought a new Bavaria some years ago & if in the market now I would not have discounted one ( administration accepted)
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Why do you continually spout such nonsense? There are literally 10s of thousands of Bavarias in use and your "claims" are based on one model built in very small numbers over 10 years ago.

Keel damage generally is almost exclusively related to boats that race and occurs for two main reasons, the first is defective design or construction (usually on non production boats) or more generally as a consequence of grounding or collision. Look up the ISAF survey of the subject.

BoB was correct in saying Bavarias (as well as other mass production boats) are "very reliable" and the odd failure, particularly in a boat unconnected with all the other models built does not change that.
 
JumbleDuck said:
Agreed, apart from the marque. Unlike Skoda, Bavaria don't have to deal with a period in their history when they made (had to make) very cheap and cheerful boats. I'd say that they are more like Ford or Vauxhall. Their products are well designed, well-made, popular with fleet buyers ... and completely non-aspirational. Nobody has ever said "What I really, really want is ... (pause, sigh) ... a Ford Mondeo" and nobody has ever said "What I really, really want is ... (pause, sigh) ... a Bavaria".

That matters, because apart from the elderly for whom boat ownership is normal, buying is now an aspirational thing. Quite apart from the financial inanity, who dreams of buying a boat just like the ones they can rent? For younger buyers a boat has to be special to be bought and Bavarias, for all their excellent qualities, are not special.
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Responding to this trend is perhaps the main reason for their troubles. They have invested huge sums in a new range of 40'+ boats aimed at the growing charter market for this type - following where Hanse Beneteau and Jeanneau have already gone. Plus new production facilities to build larger boats.

Sales of "traditional" models have fallen off a cliff for exactly the reasons you state. I could see the contrast in my two dealings with them. When I bought the first one in 2000, the 34 which is what I wanted was sold out until 2002 so I bought the 37 which was going out of production and mine was one of the last delivered in Feb 2001. In 2015 I ordered in May for July production! Now dealers have stocks of all the smaller boats, but few buyers.

No doubt somebody will pick up the pieces and reconfigure to a scale that reflects current demand. The brand is still strong (although not sure about the latest product) as is the distribution at least in Europe.
 
I wonder will Bénéteau be drooling over the prospect of picking up a competitor?

They have been in business since 1884 and have a well diversified activity. Only 37.5% of their sales represent sail boats and only 48.5% of their activity is in Europe.

Shareholders funds (54.4% family held) total €590 m and their market capitalisation is €1.6 billion.
 
Sybarite said:
I wonder will Bénéteau be drooling over the prospect of picking up a competitor?

They have been in business since 1884 and have a well diversified activity. Only 37.5% of their sales represent sail boats and only 48.5% of their activity is in Europe.

Shareholders funds (54.4% family held) total €590 m and their market capitalisation is €1.6 billion.
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Would you have the figures from Bavaria for comparison?
 
Scala said:
Well that's what I have asked Clipper. I'll let you know.
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What follows is a guess.......but I guess you didn’t buy your boat from the German company, Bavaria, but bought it from Clipper. In your shoes, my concern would be about the ability of Clipper to honour its warranty obligations. As I say, it’s just a guess and you will know the exact position. In any event, good luck. :encouragement:
 
They've replied, confirming the facts as of today, and will let me know shortly where we stand.

Bavaria Yachtbau GmbH said:
Bavaria Yachtbau GmbH filed for proceedings in self-administration under German law (“Eigenverwaltung”) with the District Court of Würzburg.

The objective of the proceedings is to find an investor for the renowned shipyard for sailing and motorised yachts with its headquarters in Giebelstadt. To this end it is planned that the business management remain in office and thus will be legally competent within the framework of the petitioned self-administration. Business operations will continue.

Bavaria Yachtbau was founded in 1978 and is among the market leaders in European yacht building. The some 600 employees were informed in detail today in an employee meeting.

The petition for insolvency refers solely to the Bavaria Yachtbau GmbH. The French subsidiary Bavaria Catamrans SAS in Rochefort will continue to work as normal.

Bavaria Yachtbau GmbH · Bavariastraße 1 · 97232 Giebelstadt · Deutschland
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I think the Bavaria brand will be saved, as like with Oyster, the name is too strong and valuable to just dissapear. The Bavaria boats have been improved a lot upon the last 5-6 years, although they have not become any prettier. Plane ugly is more to the point. But quality wise, they did improve a lot, also because of the legal proceedings against them in the USA.

Still, the probability of a keel falling off a Bavaria are relatively a lot less likely than that of an Oyster, if you look at the numbers! :p
 
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