Bavaria in administration?

[Sailfree]

I admit to being an old fossil, but an up to date one! Many of the sound but neglected boats of the 1990’s can be restored. The new boats of today are not that much better and, in some respects (eg. MDF “woodwork”) not as good. Modern gear, instruments,winches etc. cost the same whether on a new boat or old. Perhaps there is a market for a yard refurbishing Moodys or Centaurs or Hardys or similar popular boats. Jeremy Rogers has started such a trend with rebuilt Contessa 32’s. There is no need for new boat factories at present

If you are right all new factories would go bust. There is overcapacity and intense price competition in sailing boat market subject to financial market fluctuations determining spare spending money. Hence a very unstable market.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Jeremy Rogers has started such a trend with rebuilt Contessa 32’s.

Has he sold any? I have a suspicion that the only one rebuilt is is own.

 

[JumbleDuck]

There has been a slow decline in sales of new boats in the 30-40' range since the 2008 crash. You are right about the family type market in the 2000s. In 2001 you could get a well equipped Bav 34 on the water for under £70k. In 2017 the current equivalent would have been £125k. Inflation in that period was approx 50% so the current price is £20k or roughly 20% higher in real terms. This is despite the real savings through efficiency although also affected by the fall in the value of the £.

For the sake of more precision, the Bank of England inflation calculator shows that £70k in 2001 is equivalent to £110k now (your estimate was pretty close) and the fall in the value of the pound since Breachery (€1.28 on referendum day -> €1.10 today) would take that to £128k. So that Bavaria, at the factory gate, has actually dropped slightly in real terms. Since the factory is also running at a fraction (half?) of the capacity in which Bain so unwisely invested, no wonder they're in trouble.

 

[Daydream believer]

There is no need for new boat factories at present

4 years ago I was seriously considering a change of boat.I did not buy one as I could not see anything I really liked. I certainly did not consider a second hand one & would not ever consider one. I already have a 15 year old boat & see no point in buying another old boat. I now have the problem of maintenance on my own boat. No way would I buy another just to repeat the process. Just too much waste of time.If I change I want to go sailing in a yacht with all the modern gizmos. Not last decades model that has started to wear out. I suspect that lots of people going sailing feel the same-- regardless of suggestions that old junk can be refurbished. It can, I stripped a wood boat to a bare hull & rebuilt it for fun. So I do know a bit about rebuilding boats. But never again. I want to go sailing.

 

[Daydream believer]

Prepare to be very happy, then. Future clueless yuppies might well stop buying 37 footers and look at 37 meters instead... :ambivalence:

Why do people try to insult others who have the money to buy decent sized boats to go sailing. They want something modern & glitzy. So what. As for clueless I suggest that everyone has to learn & I do not subscribe to the " learn in a leaky old wooden 22 ft bilge keel boxy drudge thing." brigade If you want to start that way then fair enough but do not stop or complain about others who have the means & will to jump the size. Before you suggest that the boats eventually do not get used then I say to you - so do the 22 ft boats that some buy as their " dream to sail the world" & find that at best they can drift up & down the same bit of river in sub F4 , get wet & cold & eventually pi..d off. Far better to go down to the marina & socialize with some friends, even if they do not get out of the marina as often as the jealous grumpy old gits think they should. & finally, If they can earn a few bob more than the rest of us then good luck to them

 

[wully1]

I'm in my early fifties. I rarely meet anyone younger than me sailing on the West Coast of Scotland.

they heard you were coming.....

 

[Tranona]

For the sake of more precision, the Bank of England inflation calculator shows that £70k in 2001 is equivalent to £110k now (your estimate was pretty close) and the fall in the value of the pound since Breachery (€1.28 on referendum day -> €1.10 today) would take that to £128k. So that Bavaria, at the factory gate, has actually dropped slightly in real terms. Since the factory is also running at a fraction (half?) of the capacity in which Bain so unwisely invested, no wonder they're in trouble.

The value of the £ against the euro at any one time muddies the water a bit, as does quoting published list prices. As you suggest the factory price in euros has fallen in real terms partly through better designs and processes and partly through higher specifications.

On the other hand £ sterling list prices are usually set only once or maybe twice a year based on an expected mean exchange rate often backed by hedging the purchase schedule for the year. I expect 2018 is based on about 1.14.

However this may, or may not have much bearing on what a UK customer actually pays for all sorts of reasons - factory promotions, deals on extras, trade in of existing boat, stock boat or special order. So with my boat it was a one off built for me and not in the schedule. The list price was based on 1.20 but was actually bought from the factory at 1.36 and that gain was shared with me. I also part exchanged so actually the list price becomes even less important as (just like trading in cars) the only thing that really matters is the "price to change" - that is how much will it cost to change my old boat for the new one.

Suspect that most new boat sales follow this sort of pattern - buyer and seller negotiating a deal they both agree on. The details of what goes into the pot vary, but linking back to a notional list price is difficult. Despite all this wheeling and dealing the biggest factor affecting the end price over time is the exchange rate and the cost today of an equivalent boat to mine would be around 20% more than 3 years ago just because of that.

 

[JumbleDuck]

they heard you were coming.....

Next year I shall be in false nose and glasses. They won't know it's me until too late.

 

[Tranona]

Next year I shall be in false nose and glasses. They won't know it's me until too late.

Spoke this evening to somebody who went to the Beaulieu Autojumble who remarked that most of the attendees seemed to aged gentlemen riding mobility scooter! He is a year older than me but does not need a scooter and said he felt young and out of place!

 

[MapisM]

Why do people try to insult others who have the money to buy decent sized boats to go sailing.

Non sequitur.
All I suggested is that many modern clueless yuppies have much more means than Seajet envisaged.
It takes a weird psychiatric attitude to read that as an attempt to insult them.
Guilty conscience, maybe? Or is that an aftermath of having stripped a wood boat to a bare hull & rebuilt it for fun...?

 

[photodog]

Non sequitur.
All I suggested is that many modern clueless yuppies have much more means than Seajet envisaged.
It takes a weird psychiatric attitude to read that as an attempt to insult them.
Guilty conscience, maybe? Or is that an aftermath of having stripped a wood boat to a bare hull & rebuilt it for fun...?

I think it was the whole “clueless yuppies” thing... it’s not really a term of endearment now is it?

Let’s put this another way... if I referrred to folks who bought aged rotting westerlies as “doddering nearly-dead’s”... that probably wouldn’t go down well, but reading some of the comments above....

 

[Daydream believer]

Non sequitur. All I suggested is that many modern clueless yuppies have much more means than Seajet envisaged. It takes a weird psychiatric attitude to read that as an attempt to insult them.:

So you do not think that calling someone is a "clueless yuppie" is an insult?

 

[Daydream believer]

Guilty conscience, maybe? Or is that an aftermath of having stripped a wood boat to a bare hull & rebuilt it for fun...?

The point is that I have " been there & done it", successfully! So I do feel qualified to comment - unlike some who glibly refer to " project boats" as though they are a simple, quick, repair job.

 

[JumbleDuck]

So you do not think that calling someone is a "clueless yuppie" is an insult?

It depends wholly on whether it's an accurate description.

 

[JumbleDuck]

The point is that I have " been there & done it", successfully! So I do feel qualified to comment - unlike some who glibly refer to " project boats" as though they are a simple, quick, repair job.

I have rebuilt a 16' GRP boat (Hunter 490) from a stripped hull and pile of bits, most of which had to be replaced. It was a huge amount of work, despite being relatively straightforward.

 

[dom]

I think it was the whole “clueless yuppies” thing... it’s not really a term of endearment now is it?Let’s put this another way... if I referrred to folks who bought aged rotting westerlies as “doddering nearly-dead’s”... that probably wouldn’t go down well, but reading some of the comments above....

Edgy for sure, then again 'clueless sprogs', 'kiddos', 'budding genius' are all edgy terms of endearment. And expensive sports cars, mobos and yachts find a rich market in youngish, successful, cash-heavy folk who perform limited due diligence before making what is essentially a lifestyle purchase. Don't boat shows kinda reflect this?

 

[dom]

I think it was the whole “clueless yuppies” thing... it’s not really a term of endearment now is it?Let’s put this another way... if I referrred to folks who bought aged rotting westerlies as “doddering nearly-dead’s”... that probably wouldn’t go down well, but reading some of the comments above....

BTW how do you make paragraphs? For a week or so I can only write in a single block of text!

 

[RobbieW]

BTW how do you make paragraphs? For a week or so I can only write in a single block of text!

From comments in the Feedback Forum - try turning ABP off

 

[dom]

From comments in the Feedback Forum - try turning ABP off

Tks, your ironic smiley is apt !!

 

[Seajet]

Why do people try to insult others who have the money to buy decent sized boats to go sailing. They want something modern & glitzy. So what. As for clueless I suggest that everyone has to learn & I do not subscribe to the " learn in a leaky old wooden 22 ft bilge keel boxy drudge thing." brigade If you want to start that way then fair enough but do not stop or complain about others who have the means & will to jump the size. Before you suggest that the boats eventually do not get used then I say to you - so do the 22 ft boats that some buy as their " dream to sail the world" & find that at best they can drift up & down the same bit of river in sub F4 , get wet & cold & eventually pi..d off. Far better to go down to the marina & socialize with some friends, even if they do not get out of the marina as often as the jealous grumpy old gits think they should. & finally, If they can earn a few bob more than the rest of us then good luck to them

Nobody suggests you learn in a ' leaky 22 bilge keel drudge ' - quite the opposite - but if you've never learned in dinghies first, which teach intuitive response to sail and crew trim, then jump straight into a 40' yacht as newbies, far from jealousy I pity such people, I've had larger boats and returned to my 22 as a purist choice for sailing enjoyment; and I steer well clear of newbies in cruisers in general, let alone 40' as they will indeed be clueless - if learning to fly I wouldn't start with a 747.