Bavaria C45 - Dangerous Nav Lights

Chindit

Chindit

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I own a Bavaria C45 which was built in 2018 and was one of the early boats to come off the production line. Generally very pleased with her performance and build quality but I have been appalled by Bavaria’s resistance to fixing a major safety isssue with the Nav Lights which affects my boat and other C45s.

All of the switching on the boat, including the Nav lights, is operated by a Naviop canbus system. instead of the usual circuit breakers, lights, pumps etc can be switched using the touchscreens on the three plotters (one in saloon and two in cockpitj. This works most of the time but in case the system fails (which happens occasionally) Bavaria supply emergency override switches for the three bilge pumps, saloon lights and supposedly the Navlights. However the Navlight switch is just wired to switch on the Steaming Light.

The net result is if the Naviop system goes down you can only switch on the steaming light. This is a single white light shining forward which is not permitted under the colregs. Other vessels at night will see the single white light and assume it to be a stern light on a vessel sailing away. This could result in a collision and in extremis loss of life.

For the past year Bavaria have persistently refused to correct this so that the emergency override switches on either the the forward and aft Nav lights or the tricolour. Apparently it would involve one and a half days labour due to the way the boat is wired and Bavaria clearly do not want to incur the cost.

As this is a safety issue I do not want to back down and also want to ensure that the issue is corrected by Bavaria on all the C45s with this incorrect Nav light configuration. I am now trying to get the MCA to take action and contact Bavaria.

in the meantime, watch out next time you see a single white at night. It might not be a vessel sailing away ahead but a Bavaria C45 heading directly towards you.
 
njware said:
I own a Bavaria C45 which was built in 2018 and was one of the early boats to come off the production line. Generally very pleased with her performance and build quality but I have been appalled by Bavaria’s resistance to fixing a major safety isssue with the Nav Lights which affects my boat and other C45s.

All of the switching on the boat, including the Nav lights, is operated by a Naviop canbus system. instead of the usual circuit breakers, lights, pumps etc can be switched using the touchscreens on the three plotters (one in saloon and two in cockpitj. This works most of the time but in case the system fails (which happens occasionally) Bavaria supply emergency override switches for the three bilge pumps, saloon lights and supposedly the Navlights. However the Navlight switch is just wired to switch on the Steaming Light.

The net result is if the Naviop system goes down you can only switch on the steaming light. This is a single white light shining forward which is not permitted under the colregs. Other vessels at night will see the single white light and assume it to be a stern light on a vessel sailing away. This could result in a collision and in extremis loss of life.

For the past year Bavaria have persistently refused to correct this so that the emergency override switches on either the the forward and aft Nav lights or the tricolour. Apparently it would involve one and a half days labour due to the way the boat is wired and Bavaria clearly do not want to incur the cost.

As this is a safety issue I do not want to back down and also want to ensure that the issue is corrected by Bavaria on all the C45s with this incorrect Nav light configuration. I am now trying to get the MCA to take action and contact Bavaria.

in the meantime, watch out next time you see a single white at night. It might not be a vessel sailing away ahead but a Bavaria C45 heading directly towards you.
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Some fair points here. But in an LED world, would some simple emergency nav lights not largely solve this problem?

My worry would be more about the future maintenance and possible expansion of such a system, but time will no doubt tell.
 
Would a system failure not warrant you to carry a set of battery powered emergency navigation lights? Coupled with your switchable steaming light should keep you in check.

If I'm catching up with a white light I would be thinking it was a small boat showing an all round white and I would keep clear or I was going to pass a boat and again would keep clear. I agree a switch wired to the steaming light isn't ideal as you have no light showing behind you so may be better to with it to a masthead all round white (anchor).

Edit Dom beat me to it... that'll teach me to make a cuppa mid post.

Thinking about it steaming only is probably the smart thing, if you switched on the tri you'll be in breach of col regs if you motored and if you just had deck lights you would be in breach. Emergency lights and switched streaming is the way to go.
 
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Two worrying things with the OP :
  1. The owner is not carrying any emergency lights; and
  2. The owner is not rolling their sleeves up and fixing the problem. What happens when something else happens with the canbus 50 miles offshore and nobody onboard understands canbus and can't fix it.
 
Agree with above, get some ‘clip on’ emergency led nav lights and spare yourself the banging of your head against a wall trying to get a mahoosive company to accept they got something wrong. Life is short.
 
njware said:
For the past year Bavaria have persistently refused to correct this so that the emergency override switches on either the the forward and aft Nav lights or the tricolour. Apparently it would involve one and a half days labour due to the way the boat is wired and Bavaria clearly do not want to incur the cost.

As this is a safety issue I do not want to back down and also want to ensure that the issue is corrected by Bavaria on all the C45s with this incorrect Nav light configuration. I am now trying to get the MCA to take action and contact Bavaria.
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Your redress should be through the dealer which supplied the boat. If they won't fix it, get it fixed yourself and sue them for the cost.
 
pvb said:
Your redress should be through the dealer which supplied the boat. If they won't fix it, get it fixed yourself and sue them for the cost.
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And after a lot of time and effort to try to sue them, and perchance you manage to win, they might offer the financial compensation as ............. the cost of a set of battery power emergency navigation lights, which are the most reliable and flexible solution anyway.
 
pvb said:
Your redress should be through the dealer which supplied the boat. If they won't fix it, get it fixed yourself and sue them for the cost.
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Suing seems somewhat premature. The cost of running new wires to say pushpit/pulpit backup nav lights can be what, <£350 all in?

And while I get the OP's point I'm not at all sure his desire for such redundancy would stand up in court. Could I for example claim that a new boat has not been fitted with dual navigation lights as required by ship regs, even though there is absolutely no obligation -- either contractual or statutory -- for the builder to to this?
 
dom said:
Suing seems somewhat premature. The cost of running new wires to say pushpit/pulpit backup nav lights can be what, <£350 all in?

And while I get the OP's point I'm not at all sure his desire for such redundancy would stand up in court. Could I for example claim that a new boat has not been fitted with dual navigation lights as required by ship regs, even though there is absolutely no obligation -- either contractual or statutory -- for the builder to to this?
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It's not just running wires, it's also arranging switching which won't conflict with the canbus system.

As for Court action, I think the fact that Bavaria have acknowledged the risk of the canbus system failing by installing emergency override switches will count against them. If they felt the need to fit emergency switches, they should have been designed to work properly.
 
Sandy said:
Two worrying things with the OP :
  1. ...
  2. The owner is not rolling their sleeves up and fixing the problem. What happens when something else happens with the canbus 50 miles offshore and nobody onboard understands canbus and can't fix it.
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Well, I suspect that it is a fairly complex fix - I'm a trained electronic engineer, but it's not something that I would be over enthusiastic about undertaking. If the current system is based on remote switching controlled over the canbus, there is a lot of additional wiring to put in to provide the manual override - not surprising given that Bavaria are estimating one and a half days to modify it...
 
"in the meantime, watch out next time you see a single white at night. It might not be a vessel sailing away ahead but a Bavaria C45 heading directly towards you."

Or a boat at anchor or a vessel <7 metres.

Very frustrating for you but I'm surprised you're not also tackling the root cause.

I assume it's B&G equipment yet you seem to accept that the system occasionally fails.

Why?
 
pvb said:
It's not just running wires, it's also arranging switching which won't conflict with the canbus system.

As for Court action, I think the fact that Bavaria have acknowledged the risk of the canbus system failing by installing emergency override switches will count against them. If they felt the need to fit emergency switches, they should have been designed to work properly.
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It would probably need to be an entirely independent system. As for the implied acceptance of liability, we would need to see the correspondence before going hard on that. Personally, the notion of Court action for something relatively trivial, contacting the MCA, asking for a full yacht recall, etc., seems excessive and possibly even vexatious.

Personally, I hate canbus systems in yachts where, unlike say cars, modifications are part and parcel of the game and where the vessel may be far away from suitably equipped dealer diagnostics. But that's a matter of personal opinion.

Bavarias are built to a price, we all know that, and very good they are at doing it is the impression I get. Same applies to a Ford Focus or an S-Series Merc. And neither have a back-up for a failed canbus!

I can't help thinking we're entering 'mountain into molehill' territory here. Why not just make an owner mod, write a polite letter to Bavaria asking for a contribution to costs and see what they say.
 
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Thanks to people for th
Sandy said:
Two worrying things with the OP :
  1. The owner is not carrying any emergency lights; and
  2. The owner is not rolling their sleeves up and fixing the problem. What happens when something else happens with the canbus 50 miles offshore and nobody onboard understands canbus and can't fix it.
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Sandy - Did no one teach you the old adage “Never Assumel

1. Of course I carry emergency lights. They are a backup.

2. Don’t assume I can “roll my sleeves up“ and fix intricate wiring which links Nav lights into a canbus system. The emergency override switch is installed for the very purpose of still being able to use the lights if the Naviop system fails. If I was to start playing with it I would probably also invalidate the warranty. This was a new boat and should be correctly wired. I understand the override switch works correctly on the most recent boats so should be corrected for those that were wired incorrectly
 
Thanks to everyone for their comments. A few points in response:

  1. She is a new boat so Bavaria or the UK dealer should rectify any defects..
  2. Clipper Marine are UK dealer and have been helpful with regard to remedying other defects and are happy to fix this but Bavaria are refusing to pay.
  3. I understand from Clipper that the newest boats show the correct lights on the emergency override so Bavaria must be aware of the issue but just want to avoid the cost of fixing. As this is a safety issue, this seems a Boeingesque approach.
  4. I do carry emergency lights but only want to have to use them in case of a complete failure, not because the canbus system plays up
  5. The emergency override switch was installed for a purpose and should show a legal lighting configuration not just a steaming light
Thanks to people for helpful suggestions. I will follow up but really hope this can resolved without pursuing the legal route which some suggest! Sailing is meant to be fun.
 
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Scala said:
My 2017 Vision 42 did not have this system, so not all, for sure....
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The Naviop Canbus system is just on the Mario Cosutti designed “C” range launched in 2018. I don’t know whether the Nav light issue is unique to the C45 or also is a problem on the C50 and C57. Apparently it has been fixed on the newest boats.

The wiring must be particularly complex as you would not expect it to be an onerous task to change the wiring so the emergency switch operates the tricolour or Navlights instead of the steaming light.
 
The system clearly needs TWO emergency switches, if they are to be of actual use. Sailing and motoring configurations. Possibly a third one for at anchor. I must say that I think the idea of CANBUS on a yacht is not a terribly good idea - much like electronic ECUS on diesels. The more on a yacht that is competent user fixable the better.

As there is no requirement to have a backup set of lights on a private yacht as set of decent emergency LED lights seems to be wise.

And on my Volvo car the CANBUS does not detect or report a faulty LED tail light (not a bulb but a complete sealed unit) - it only detects faulty plug-in-bulbs like headlights. Found a tail light out on Christmas Eve - a quick £200 to Volvo as I had a long jouney planned just after Xmas.
 
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