Battle of the heavyweight bilge keelers...

[stevem103]

What bilge Keelers.

Consider a Westery Centeur or pay a bit more and look at a westerly Berwick or Pentland. Both offer a LOT more accomodation are faster and have a good windward performance and are much more comfortable in a seaway. I've had my Berwick since 1987 and have been very pleased with her. She also handles beautifully.
Regards, Stevem

 

[NigelBirch]

Not pay a bit more for a Berwick....pay twice as much as the budget .....

 

[stevem103]

what bilge keelers

O.K you will pay more but not twice the budget But of all the boats you are talking about on this thread (with the exception of the W33 & Diccus) the Berwick and Pentland are by far the best boats for size, performance and handling. The W33 and discus are good boats True offshore capabilities I cannot see how they can be slower than aCentaur, unless they forgot to weigh anchor before they set off!

Stevem

 

[dgadee]

As you are probably aware, the Seawolf 30 is quite a handful, huge rig for a boat with few racing pretensions; price is probably out anyway.

Byron gave py of 1002 for a seawolf 30 with twin keels. Sails very well imo.

 

[Iain C]

I'd totally disagree that the Sabre is cramped below. She does have slightly less room than a Centaur, but it's by no means cramped. We've regularly done weeks away with 4 adults...and the cockpit is huge by comparison. And from an aesthetics point of view...there's no comparison! (OK this one's a fin but only the fish know that in this picture...most are bilge keelers)

 

[chwarae]

Have a look at a Tomahawk, surprising amount of room and sail very well.

 

[prv]

If sailing performance matters, I'm surprised- unless I've missed it- that no one has mentioned the Jaguar 27, in effect, a v slightly smaller Trapper.......

Just gone and looked at some pictures of one of those. Looks like a nice boat - how well do the bilge-keeled ones sail? Compared to, say, a B/K Sadler 25, which I'm assuming is towards the top of the performance range for old boats of this sort of size that can dry out.

Pete

 

[Laurie]

Just gone and looked at some pictures of one of those. Looks like a nice boat - how well do the bilge-keeled ones sail? Compared to, say, a B/K Sadler 25, which I'm assuming is towards the top of the performance range for old boats of this sort of size that can dry out.

Pete

Extremely well, I can supply various tests, most of which appear in some form on the original owners website (I set up the assoc. and ran it for 7 years), & owned a 27 TK for 14 years, until this year, & sailed all over the east coast.
The TK keels are very efficient, although having a longer chord than may currently be fashionable. This however gives great directional stability, & Sunbird could be sailed when balanced, to windward without touching the helm.
The boat is stiff & fast with a comfortable motion: we have had long sails to windward in F7s & a short blast in a 9. The TK only draws a few inches less than the fin, & pointing ability has often surprised many. The Jaguar, also has a very long cockpit. I can supply loads of info on these boats if you wish, & have just sold Sunbird for a Feeling 286 ( we'll see....) after 14 years & with a lot of soul searching.
The Sabre & Centaurs are both excellent boats, but in performance terms I would expect that all things etc., the Jaguar will outsail them. Experience supports this. As in all things, every boat though is a compromise.....? What do we want, for where, for whom, for how, & how much????

Sadler 25 is a fabulous & seaworthy craft, but smaller ( therfore nominally slower) & much smaller below decks.......

Theres a cracking looking 27 TK for sale on the south coast...

Contact: Rowe David <David.M.Rowe@carillionplc.com>

 

[prv]

The boat is stiff & fast with a comfortable motion: we have had long sails to windward in F7s & a short blast in a 9. The TK only draws a few inches less than the fin, & pointing ability has often surprised many. The Jaguar, also has a very long cockpit.

Ta. I currently share a very pretty modern gaffer with my parents, and there's a few years left in that arrangement yet, but at some point I forsee us going our separate ways as they scale back to easy local pottering and I want to head further afield. So although I'm not in the market yet, I'm trying to get familiar with likely boats and build a shortlist.

KS has been great in many ways, but her ability to windward is frankly poor (no significant keel, generally tubby shape, gaff rig, two masts) and this has been an ever-present limit on my plans. So windward performance of the new boat may not be the all-consuming priority, but it's certainly high up the list. The major trade-off against that has been the fact that in contrast to the 36'+ charter boats I sailed before, KS has introduced me to the pleasure of parking upright on a beach or mudbank. So while I always used to look down on them in the past, I think a twin keel might actually be the best compromise, as long as it's one of the more scientifically-designed types that don't suffer horribly in their pointing ability. I'd heard good things about the Sadler twin keels on this score; maybe there are others.

Budget is around about the £10k mark; been saving ever since I moved to Southampton Size should be well under 30' for all the usual reasons. I am also interested in the accommodation although more about suitable layout than overall volume (I'm unlikely ever to fill the number of berths most older boats are designed with).

This post wasn't meant to be the normal "what boat should I buy" type, but it's ended up an awful lot like one So any ideas welcome.

Pete

Pete

 

[Tranona]

This post wasn't meant to be the normal "what boat should I buy" type, but it's ended up an awful lot like one So any ideas welcome.

Pete

Pete

Your "answer" is in this thread. There is a big choice of 1970's-80's boats that would meet your requirement. Your brief is the same as that of buyers of new boats in that period that had cut their teeth on Caprices, Hurley 22s etc and could afford to move up to a "proper" cruising boat - but as most moorings were swinging (and many half tide) the ability to dry out was high on the list. In many ways, those were the boats that occupy the same position in the new boat market as the 34-36ft AWBs do now.

Just as it is now difficult to choose between the Bennys, Bavs etc, so it was difficult to choose from the Centaurs, Sabres, Mirages, Macwesters etc. They are all capable of doing similar things, but obviously try to differentiate by sharper sailing/better accommodation/ different looks and so on. So boats that "won" in terms of sales in those days are likely to be good choices now, but as always there will be outsiders which might in retrospect be as good or better but did not catch on when new.

Your budget is not enough to get the most developed (ie newer) designs such as Sadlers, small Moodys, later Westerlys such as the Griffon, Merlin, Konsort and bigger Hunters, but you still have a good half dozen well proven designs to choose from that are available in sufficient numbers for there to be a choice. Then the main criteria are condition, condition, and condition. Enjoyment of the boat comes largely from it being in a condition (and be equipped appropriately) for what you want to do, rather than the finer points of handling - much of which is down to you anyway.

As I have already said, my personal choice would be a Sabre, but I would be able to do the same sort of cruising with a Centaur, Jaguar 27, Mirage 26, Macwester 27 - and no doubt a few more. However, to be honest, if it was my long term boat, I would double the purchase budget and jump a generation!

Hope this helps.

 

[Seajet]

Pete,

for the purposes you describe I'd recommend the Seawolf 26, twin keel version.

Good performance and very reasonable accomodation, some have saildrives, some a conventional shaft & P bracket; a friend who is a very good sailor has one and speaks highly of it.

Otherwise the Sadler 25 is an excellent sailing boat but a tad small below; you might scrape a Sadler 26 in budget, very good boats but losing some interior space to the buoyancy foam; if like you sailing with a small crew, I'd be happy to pay that price for 'unsinkability' !

 

[prv]

if it was my long term boat, I would double the purchase budget and jump a generation!

Well, yes, and that would be a nice situation to be in. But, erm, I'm not

Pete

 

[CAPTAIN FANTASTIC]

As others have said, you have a choice a few good pedigree boats; I am biased towards Macwesters, but the Sabre, is a great boat, so are the Westerlys etc.

However, does not really matter which one you will end up buying, the main issue is that the boat has been maintained properly and has a GOOD engine and sails; if you have to replace the engine you are talking about a few thousands pounds, and similarly for new sails. If the rigging needs replacement , can be done slowly over time.

 

[Tranona]

Well, yes, and that would be a nice situation to be in. But, erm, I'm not

Pete

If you really are a long term owner then the initial purchase price becomes increasingly small as a proportion of the total cost of ownership. Where you set the initial cost budget depends in part on the benefits that come from different levels of cost. suppose the point I was trying to make is that the later boats offer significant extra benefits - just compare the Sadler 26 with the 25, a Griffon with a Centaur, a Moody 27 with a Jaguar 27.

Not ignoring the difficulties perhaps of raising the extra cash, but in many ways owning a boat long term, rather than as a nice toy is a bit more like buying a house. Get it right and you benefit for years into the future. Compromise too far and you still have to live with it.

 

[prv]

If you really are a long term owner then the initial purchase price becomes increasingly small as a proportion of the total cost of ownership. [...] Compromise too far and you still have to live with it.

That's a good point, and thanks for making it.

Doubling the budget is probably not feasible, but you do make a good argument for squeezing it up as far as I can.

Pete

 

[ghostlymoron]

This thread just runs and runs. There are lots of suitable boats in your price range - all of them have their adherants just look around and see what appeals and then read reviews to see how they perform at sea. Personally I don't like dinette layouts and prefer a galley alongside the companionway.

 

[Nicholas123]

According to Tranona performance is'nt an issue & if you bothered to read the original posters whole post you would know that! Consequently I recommend a gravy boat,it has the virtue of four sturdy feet enabling it to stand up on most surfaces & if you join them together in a train there is the added advantage that none of the owners need have the foggiest idea what they are talking about
A great advantage when posting on this forum.

 

[Seajet]

nicholas 123,

the most recent posts refer to PRV's desire for a more performance oriented boat, with less emphasis on room.

Who hasn't been reading the posts then ?!

 

[Nicholas123]

nicholas 123,

the most recent posts refer to PRV's desire for a more performance oriented boat, with less emphasis on room.

Who hasn't been reading the posts then ?!

I have read PRV's contributions so you need'nt jump on that band wagon either seajet!

 

[Seajet]

According to Tranona performance is'nt an issue & if you bothered to read the original posters whole post you would know that! Consequently I recommend a gravy boat,it has the virtue of four sturdy feet enabling it to stand up on most surfaces & if you join them together in a train there is the added advantage that none of the owners need have the foggiest idea what they are talking about
A great advantage when posting on this forum.

Nicholas123,

no bandwagon; as in your post quoted here, you were having a go at people for not reading previous posts, while if you had yourself you'd know what people were on about in recent posts...