Battle of the heavyweight bilge keelers...

[CAPTAIN FANTASTIC]

I am looking into sailing and getting a suitable boat and no one on this thread has given an opinion on a boat that seems to tick a lot of boxes for me, and that is the Macgregor 26X, so am I wrong or is it a good boat.

Your question will get people going because the Macgregors are like marmite. It does not tick all the boxes; it ticks half of all the boxes; which means that its no very good sailer, is not very good cruiser and it is not a very good trailer either. Has been designed to satisfy certain narrow criteria. However, you will find that eventually, people choose one or the other and are likely to choose a boat with sailing abilities over a speedboat that can sail too.

Lets no forget that sailing yachts, big or small nowadays, do have capable engines that reach 5 to 8 knots; of course, the Macgregors have a planing hull capable of going on the plane with the engine alone, hence reaching 20 knots plus.

I suggest you also look at the smaller trailer-sailer type; there are a lot in the market at present; you can pick one dirt cheap and have great time.

This forum will give you plenty of suggestions and advice

 

[Bosun Higgs]

Not ignoring the difficulties perhaps of raising the extra cash, but in many ways owning a boat long term, rather than as a nice toy is a bit more like buying a house. Get it right and you benefit for years into the future. Compromise too far and you still have to live with it.

Couldn't diagree more. Boats for us yotties are toys. They arent necessities. No one should push themselves financially to buy a boat. The OP is quite right and should stick to the budget he is comfortable he can support.

 

[Tranona]

Couldn't diagree more. Boats for us yotties are toys. They arent necessities. No one should push themselves financially to buy a boat. The OP is quite right and should stick to the budget he is comfortable he can support.

Just because you might consider them "toys" does not mean that you should not apply logic to the decision and if it is a long term one then perhaps the long term overall cost against the benefits is more important than trying to minimise the initial cost. Over 10 year time span peoples' financial situation can change out of all recognition.

Of course it is for the individual to assess their own future as best they can and act accordingly. I was just suggesting (with examples) why spending more in the first place can lead to greater long term satisfaction.

 

[chewi]

Just because you might consider them "toys" does not mean that you should not apply logic to the decision and if it is a long term one then perhaps the long term overall cost against the benefits is more important than trying to minimise the initial cost. Over 10 year time span peoples' financial situation can change out of all recognition.

Of course it is for the individual to assess their own future as best they can and act accordingly. I was just suggesting (with examples) why spending more in the first place can lead to greater long term satisfaction.

Perhaps true enough in hindsight, but also maybe his budget was £5K and its already doubled.. Its his budget, let's respect it. He doesnt really know what he wants yet, and is very likely to buy something not quite right, and on this advice for 2x his comfortable spend.

I won't borrow to buy toys, he may have the same view.

You can buy a boat that does 8 knots for 2x theprice you get 6 knots, but you still want to go faster, so what do you gain?

 

[Allan]

Just pondering the future on a cold day and, for 10K ish, what would you go for?

Macwester 27
Macwester 28
Mirage 28
Snapdragon 890
Snapdragon 27
Leisure 27

Looking for solid, seaworthy, safe, roomy and able to take the ground....I know these don't often come fast as well but that doesn't much worry me.

Thanks all, looking forward to your thoughts!

I've only read the first page of this thread.
Last weekend I did a delivery trip from Plymouth to Cardiff on a Mirage 28. I understand it cost in the region of £4500. If ~£500 was spent now it would make a very nice little cruiser. It sailed OK with a good motion through the water and had everything you would need for a cruiser for a couple.
I have also raced on a Trapper 500 which has achieved some good results.
Allan

 

[Seajet]

Allan,

presumably the Mirage was a fin keeler to go for such a low price ?

I agree re. the Trapper 500 / 501, a lot of good boat for relatively little money.

 

[Allan]

Allan,

presumably the Mirage was a fin keeler to go for such a low price ?

I agree re. the Trapper 500 / 501, a lot of good boat for relatively little money.

No, she is a bilge keeler. A friend of mine (and contributor on here) has a fin version which is a good boat but, in my opinion, not as suitable for the Bristol channel. I've now sailed two bilge versions and they seem to sail well to me. If the OP does go for one I suggest they check the welding at the base of the the spreaders. One I saw had some very pretty looking weld which had no penetration.
I read a couple of pages back about the Centaur/Discus. I'm a big fan of both.
My brother and myself taught ourselves to sail on his Centaur, Peter Pan. Even with two sailors who knew little of how to sail she was often up to hull speed and seemed, to me, to go as well as more modern boats.
As I have said on here before, I have a, bilge keel, sloop rigged, Westerly 33. I bought it as a big old tub and expected little in the way of sailing abilities. After a fun year, getting exactly what I expected, I then had the rigging checked and set-up. This made an enormous difference. She will never be a racer but is now a good passage-maker. Sorry for the thread drift as, I hope, she is still outside the OP's budget.
Allan
PS, I seem to remember reading there were 2,444 Centaurs sold, so they can't too bad.

 

[Nicholas123]

Do you think you could practice your pedantry elsewhere, rather than killing what for some is an interesting thread.

No is the short answer.All I am interested in is the truth the whole truth & nothing but the truth & if some people can't handle that tough!

A "battle of the heavy weight bilge keelers" that does not involved a beat to windward against the wind & the tide is meaningless.All we are hearing is my opinion is better than yours

(& before anyone says anything you can have a hell of a lot of fun in a bilge keel boat that dos'nt have much of a windward performance.I should know I have owned one & sailed it extensively for fifteen years.Still the time comes when you want to sail further afield & performance becomes an issue).

It would be interesting to hear actual first hand experience from people who have owned Sabre's Centaurs etc & can actually say 'my boat beat such & such boat no trouble in a beat to windward.'

 

[Laurie]

No is the short answer.All I am interested in is the truth the whole truth & nothing but the truth & if some people can't handle that tough!

A "battle of the heavy weight bilge keelers" that does not involved a beat to windward against the wind & the tide is meaningless.All we are hearing is my opinion is better than yours

(& before anyone says anything you can have a hell of a lot of fun in a bilge keel boat that dos'nt have much of a windward performance.I should know I have owned one & sailed it extensively for fifteen years.Still the time comes when you want to sail further afield & performance becomes an issue).

It would be interesting to hear actual first hand experience from people who have owned Sabre's Centaurs etc & can actually say 'my boat beat such & such boat no trouble in a beat to windward.'

Ok....my (ex) Jaguar 27......

 

[Nicholas123]

Ok....my (ex) Jaguar 27......

Got to admit that they look like a pretty impressive boat from what I have seen of them but can you get one for under £10,000?
My reservations would be the price & a balsa core deck.

 

[Laurie]

Got to admit that they look like a pretty impressive boat from what I have seen of them but can you get one for under £10,000?
My reservations would be the price & a balsa core deck.

Yes, there have been some, trawling the ads. but as in all things I would expect a well sorted/equipped one to go for a little more?

An awful lot of boats, certainly of that period had balsa cored decks, indeed most of those discussed earlier in the thread.

For less money, and some may feel a better use of space below is the Jaguar 25, available as fin, lift(swing) or twin keel. The twin keel without attention to rig /sail tune, could be prone to lee helm in light airs. The 27 has cicumnavigated, & the 25, the AZAB.. in good time, & was a TK. The 25 is a later design than the 27. The 27 has a reputation as a good windward performer in both fin (natch) & TK format: nor does the TK slam or catch a thump between the keels as others are well known to do.....

 

[Nicholas123]

Yes, there have been some, trawling the ads. but as in all things I would expect a well sorted/equipped one to go for a little more?

An awful lot of boats, certainly of that period had balsa cored decks, indeed most of those discussed earlier in the thread.

For less money, and some may feel a better use of space below is the Jaguar 25, available as fin, lift(swing) or twin keel. The twin keel without attention to rig /sail tune, could be prone to lee helm in light airs. The 27 has cicumnavigated, & the 25, the AZAB.. in good time, & was a TK. The 25 is a later design than the 27. The 27 has a reputation as a good windward performer in both fin (natch) & TK format: nor does the TK slam or catch a thump between the keels as others are well known to do.....

The point about slamming seems very pertinent to me & I often look at centaurs with the very splayed keels & wonder what the sea going performance is like.Probably alright providing you don't heel to far?
Nice looking boats those jags,pity about the stays bang in the middle of the side decks,why do they do that?

 

[Laurie]

The point about slamming seems very pertinent to me & I often look at centaurs with the very splayed keels & wonder what the sea going performance is like.Probably alright providing you don't heel to far?
Nice looking boats those jags,pity about the stays bang in the middle of the side decks,why do they do that?

Just to push things, I have had the side decks awash to the windows, & still she ploughed on. Not the best trim I know, but I like to push the "what ifs".

The Jags are stoutly rigged, on the 27 (bringing the rig inbooard allows a closer sheeting angle, greater pointing potential, etc.) the cap shrouds & fore/aft lowers are easily accessible below, and backed by stainless plates, or even larger shaped & formed, anodised aluminium billet from Catalina Direct.

Centaurs have relatively efficient, hydrodynamic, keel design, especially for their time compared to contemporaries such as Snapdragons and their ilk. That is why, I believe, that Centaurs perform better than some may percieve, when there's enough wind to get them going! They do however tend to be one of those that thump,in my experience, to windward in a chop.....

 

[Seajet]

My father had a late Centaur, no.2187. It went well, rather better than expected; we put that down to Dad's dinghy experience, though as mentioned previously we didn't like the lack of feel on the helm, Dad tried all sorts of tabs & vortex generators on the rudder but didn't get much difference.

We once had the fun of sailing her downwind in a full F8 with very nearly the whole genoa, as the Plastimo roller had jammed; the boat behaved very well, even when on a beam reach into Chichester.

I remember one sail on a fine reach in about F5, the Centaur went very well ( yes, anything would, but this is relative to other boats ) and overtook a Westerly 33, though I don't remember if they were trying.

The Centaur proved a good passage maker, and although naturally a bit slower than the Carter 30 I had at the time, we didn't have to reduce sail that much for her to keep up with us across the Channel.

The interior is of course rather stark grp, Dad clad everything with mahogany & veneered ply, which helped hugely and wasn't difficult to do.

I don't remember any waves thumping the windward keel, which I must admit did occur with the Trapper 501 twin keeler we sailed.

The Centaur did suffer the famous weak hull / keel joins, Dad reinforced the keel stubs inside massively and used a box spanner with a very long handle which almost but not quite entirely cured it; a friend with another, older Centaur at my club had the same problem, he was exasperated that despite a lot of reinforcing a tiny gap opened up at the keel join leading edge whenever that boat was in the hoist; not a real problem, just irritating.

Dad's Centaur was no slouch, ( don't get me wrong, no rocket either ) and still had a fixed 3 blade prop; with a modern feathering job I'd think she could surprise a few trendier boats !

 

[Scotty_Tradewind]

Got to admit that they look like a pretty impressive boat from what I have seen of them but can you get one for under £10,000?
My reservations would be the price & a balsa core deck.

There should be no problem with a balsa cored deck unless maintenance has not been attended to or some prat has decided to screw down deck fittings or teak decks.

If all through deck fittings are bolted with machine screw and those bolts and fittings are regularly resealed (every five to ten years) and sealant around hatches etc is kept good, then they are strong and well insulated.

My deck did have a few of the bad things about it but luckily I bought her in time to save her and do a major refit. The good thing for me was that it gave me an excellent bartering point when I made the purchase at what I deam to be the right price.

 

[prv]

There should be no problem with a balsa cored deck unless maintenance has not been attended to or some prat has decided to screw down deck fittings or teak decks.

As was done on Kindred Spirit . Dozens of fittings added all over the decks, straight through the core with no sleeving, and a dab of bathroom silicone all squeezed out as the screws were tightened down.

The aft deck had had a hole for a cable drilled right through it, no gland or anything, just rain seeping into the core. It had been plywood (for strength under the mizzen mast foot) but came out like soggy sponge cake when I cut off the top skin to replace it.

If all through deck fittings are bolted with machine screw and those bolts and fittings are regularly resealed (every five to ten years) and sealant around hatches etc is kept good, then they are strong and well insulated.

Trouble is, what are the odds that such maintenance has been rigidly attended to by every owner over the 30+ years that the boats in this thread have been around?

Pete

 

[Scotty_Tradewind]

Trouble is, what are the odds that such maintenance has been rigidly attended to by every owner over the 30+ years that the boats in this thread have been around?

Pete

Then when you inspect/self survey it you look for such things, or if thought to be a boat you would like to buy at the right price, then you have a full survey done, with the proviso that the price eventually offered would be liable to change if faults were found subject to that survey.

My boat started at £45 and I eventually paid what i thought it was worth just a fraction under £30K prior to me doing a major refit (which is still on-going, but we're winning! )

 

[Red Admiral]

Newbridge Pioneer

As a very late-comer to this thread could I suggest a boat which I believe hasn't been mentioned before. The 26' Pioneer is basically a floating caravan - very good, comfortable accommodation and reassuringly buoyant in large following seas. Most available will be considerably younger, and less tired, for the same price than others recommended in this thread (reflecting of course their relative popularities). They are very strongly built with cast iron keels; most hulls seem to have been epoxied from new. They were available as bermudian or junk rigged. There is also a more expensive pilot-house version with inside steering position.

I have sailed a junk version for the last eleven years. Neither boat nor engine has ever let me down nor given me cause for concern in the varied sailing conditions we have enjoyed both in the Thames Estuary and among the Hebrides.

 

[matey 1]

Hello Seajet
And thanks for the welcome, I am looking into going sailing now I am about to retire, my biggest problem is where to moor it as I live in the midlands, but I will work it out. Thanks Alan