Basic yacht questions & contemplating buying Beneteau First 20 - good idea?

[ian-]

Hi everyone!

I’d like to apologise for basic questions and naïve approach, hope you’re not too harsh on my first post.

I am contemplating buying a sail boat and looking at Beneteau First 20 (new) – is that the right choice for the money?

Few points to clarify:

• I am based near Brighton (Shoreham actually), the yacht will be moored all year round in local marina
• Used for recreational sailing with wife, faster sailing with friends
• Plan occasionally to stay overnight close to shore with sea permitting e.g. Saturday to Sunday
• Would prefer a new / nearly new yacht for £30-£35k, interior is important for the wife.

My experience:

• Started off in Caribbean on Hobbi-Cats, loved sailing especially just before they “red-flag-it” due to high winds
• 100% taught myself by observing first then trying, plus YouTube; never capsized despite sailing on one side (intentionally)
• I am completing RYA Level 2 this weekend: Found Level 1 on Delphia 24 boring and was the best sailor in the group, performing Man Overboard manoeuvre better than instructor (in my opinion). Instructor was 19 y.o. but I learned how to prepare the boat, put sails, etc – things that you don’t do on a holiday! Unfortunately, he could not answer how to achieve the fastest route, best tilt for speed, etc. – only provided general comments… I think these are not Level 1 questions, so hope next chap will be more experienced.

Few obvious questions:

1. Beneteau First 20 has an option of “chemical toilet”– where exactly does it go and is it practical? Does anyone have any photos?- I just cannot figure it out: if friends come, is it usable for privacy or do you pull-out a porta-potti on a deck? – crazy!
2. Overboard engine – is that a problem when comparing to built-in? Is the range OK with some spare fuel canisters? I have no idea how far such engines can go…
3. 35L Water Tank capacity – is that OK for two-day sailing for 2 people..?
4. Safety is high priority – is a boat stable?
   
   Some more really stupid questions:
   
   
5. Can it be used to sail to France and back? It’s level C6/D6, so a definite “no”? – If not, where is the furthers it can go to over a weekend and back, Isle of Wight? – not plan to do it straight away, but looking to buy a boat for a number of years, so may happen in future.
6. Can it be used in winter – do people do that?
7. Do you need (shall you get) insurance?
8. What’s depreciation like – same as cars or not so bad?
9. Annual maintenance fees – a rough figure we should budget for?

Thanks everyone in advance and sorry if anyone finds it too naive!

 

[richardabeattie]

With a budget of up to £35k I would not be looking for a 6.5m boat with little headroom and a chemical loo! For half the budget you could buy twice the boat second hand. I like the idea of an overboard engine but will stick to my outboard. Good luck whatever you do.

 

[Tranona]

Welcome to the forum

The First is a sporty boat with overnight capability in a sort of just above camping way. It will meet your requirement for the thrills aspect, but probably not the sort of boat you would want to have guests on board overnight chemical toilets are OK and fit the camping philosophy. Usually mounted under a bunk and use there. However, most people avoid using on boat facilities and rather use those on shore. Water capacity is limited because of space and again fits "camping"

A boat that size does not have an inboard engine as there is not room it spoils performance and is not necessary. An outboard is normal and get one small enough to remove when sailing. Range is limited but this is a performance sailing boat and you won't want to go far under engine.

As for stability, it will not capsize but will have a lively motion. Category C is coastal cruising so overnight trips to the IOW would be possible but a bit of an adventure. Sure an experienced person would get one safely across the channel in good weather, but that is not what the boat is designed for. You can sail all year round, but you might find winter sailing more interesting if you take up club racing. a sunday morning bash around the buoys is a good tonic.

Your biggest expense will be the marina berth. Maintenance costs on a newish boat will be low in the early years - in the hundreds rather than thousands. Depreciation will be high in the first couple of years if a new boat then slow down. If you plan keeping it for a long time there is sense in buying a new boat as you can keep it to a high standard and have no problem selling when you want to move up/on. Insurance is sensible and not expensive.

Hope this helps.

 

[Sticky Fingers]

Hi and welcome along. I agree with Richard^ you can get a great used yacht for 35k, but to answer your questions



Beneteau First 20 has an option of “chemical toilet”– where exactly does it go and is it practical? Does anyone have any photos?- I just cannot figure it out: if friends come, is it usable for privacy or do you pull-out a porta-potti on a deck? – crazy!
Your wife will hate it, and hate you for it. However, it's like a caravan porta potti. Exactly so. In a small boat may be behind a curtain.



Overboard engine – is that a problem when comparing to built-in? Is the range OK with some spare fuel canisters? I have no idea how far such engines can go…
Outboard - fine for a small boat. Uses petrol, not readily available at all marinas and arguably the second most dangerous stuff to have on a boat. Range depends hugely on boat and engine size, and the speed you choose to go, expect maybe 5-7 mpg at best. Varies widely though.


35L Water Tank capacity – is that OK for two-day sailing for 2 people..?
No way. We have 390 litres and it lasts a few days.



Safety is high priority – is a boat stable?
Yes in any sensible use case, boat will heel but not capsize, unlike a Hobie.


Some more really stupid questions:


Can it be used to sail to France and back? It’s level C6/D6, so a definite “no”? – If not, where is the furthers it can go to over a weekend and back, Isle of Wight? – not plan to do it straight away, but looking to buy a boat for a number of years, so may happen in future.
Yes, in minimal comfort.



Can it be used in winter – do people do that?
Frostbite race series. No heating.


Do you need (shall you get) insurance?
Yes if you keep in any marina or want to visit one. Recommended in all cases of course.


What’s depreciation like – same as cars or not so bad?
Curve is longer.


Annual maintenance fees – a rough figure we should budget for?
Guesswork, but lift,scrub/anti foul and an engine service, 400-700 ish depending on whether you DIY or not.

 

[Sticky Fingers]

Crossed with tranona. Same view I think.

 

[ian-]

Hi guys, and thanks everyone for comments.

Great that I seem to be on track, raising all the right points, and toilet seems to be a delicate issue!

With a view of steep depreciation at the beginning, what would you recommend for £35k that is a few years old?

Main sailing will be recreational day trips, with a rare overnight stay for just the two of us. Any friends will come during the day only, max two people I think.

It is very likely I will own the boat for five years (90%), with possibility of 60% for another five. Taking into account that maintenance is likely to rise with age, what would be a good investment of £35k + £1k/year maintenance + £1.5k mooring fees (if I calculate these right for Shoreham area)?

Thank you all, his is great help.

 

[ronsurf]

The limiting factor for most of your questions is you, not the boat. Especially when it comes to winter sailing.
Chemical toilet is a glorified bucket & chuck it without the chuck it option. Much less chance of your boat sinking than a sea heads. You use it in the cabin, while everyone else provides privacy accordingly. A heads in a 20' boat is a bit optimistic in my opinion. Realistically most of the time your crew will pee over the side.
35l water tank depends if you and your crew drink water or shower with it. The less you drink, the less you need the toilet facilities.
Just about any boat is capable of getting to France from Brighton. Shane Acton sailed round the world twice in an 18' plywood boat without so much as an RYA lesson.
Marina is likely to insist on 3rd party insurance as a minimum.
If you're keeping it in the water year round, you need to factor in anti fouling. Taking it out of the water in the winter and storing on land is an option if you fancy having a less stressed winter.
I prefer an outboard engine (an overboard engine is a different situation entirely), especially on a 20' boat as it gives a massive advantage in manoeuvrability. Mine uses 1.1l per hour with a speed of about 4.5knots. I have a 15l external tank, and I can carry another 10l in canisters. So that's 25 hours range. Plenty I think.
If you're worried about depreciation, spend less.
A 20' keelboat is not a Hobie Cat. If your enjoyment of sailing comes from going very fast in strongish winds, then get a Hobie Cat. A 20' displacement boat will not sail faster than 5knots and is a very different experience.

The ultimate rule is that you can realistically only buy a boat that is for sale. If the Beneteau 20 didn't sell in great quantities there may not be any in the UK, let alone anywhere near you. Look at what's for sale near you and see whether it fits your criteria before deciding on a specific boat. Inspect a lot of boats and let that decide your priorities first.

Find out if the marina has any moorings available first. The moment you buy it you have to put it somewhere and moorings can be very rare or expensive depending on where you live. There can be quite a waiting list for permanent moorings.

 

[SteveA]

Having had a 21.7 for ten years I'm a bit biased! but the earlier boats were built better and had internal buoyancy making them unsinkable .
They were also rated RCD B for 4 people.

The 20 is the same hull but with a shorter mast and no backstay.

The chemical toilet fits below the fwd bunk so there would be no privacy - I took it off and used the bucket method.

I sailed mine around Morecambe Bay and had to encounter winds of about 30kts which was bouncy but quite dry - they are light boats so tend to go over the waves rather than through them.

They are very much towards the racing type of yacht and perform very well in light winds but need to be reefed fairly early - when single handed the first reef went in at about 12kts true when beating.

After saying all this to be paying nearly 40k for a 21 foot boat is crackers!! - you could get a very good second hand one for about a quarter of that price; Maiden Marine are the main agent for these and usually have several for sale.

 

[ian-]

I prefer an outboard engine (an overboard engine is a different situation entirely), especially on a 20' boat as it gives a massive advantage in manoeuvrability. Mine uses 1.1l per hour with a speed of about 4.5knots. I have a 15l external tank, and I can carry another 10l in canisters. So that's 25 hours range. Plenty I think.

This is really helpful - exactly what I was looking for. Thank you.

 

[jwilson]

I understand the desire for "new", but the First 20 is really designed as a dayboat - not something they ever really expect a buyer to cruise or live on. A quite fast and very nice dayboat, but no more. If you can give up "new", look at what the same money will get you in a 5, 10 or 20 year old one - more space, a proper enclosed heads (not a porta-potti under the bunk mattress) and remember size matters for speed. The First 20 may be a pretty fast 20-footer, but over any distance most less racy 30-footers will get from A to B as fast.

If you were to go to 21 years old you could have something like https://www.yachtsnet.co.uk/boats/h73917/h73917.htm - no worries about "..... could you go to France", you can stand up below and have a proper galley and heads.

 

[Praxinoscope]

Hi Ian

Not stupid questions at all, but I would query your choice of boat, for £30-35k you could pick up a really good second hand boat that has all the creature comforts your wife would want and give you the sailing you want.
Crossing to France, when I first started cruising we used to cross from Christchurch to Cherbourg in a Leisure 17, then sailed around Brittany in a Foxterrier 22, but this was three lads in their mid to late 20’s. I now sail a Sadler 25 and often cross from Wales to Ireland in relative comfort.
I agree with those who question chemical heads, they are no more than a sophisticated bucket and chuckit.
Go for something with an inboard, Diesel engines are far more economical and who wants to carry a large quantity of highly inflammable liquid on their boat, 5 litres for a small outboard maybe but 25 litres or more, no way. You may think it’s windy all the time and you won’t need to motor anywhere, don’t believe it, there’s either no wind too much wind or the wind is coming from where you want to go so unless you are an absolute purist or racing the ‘iron topsail’ will be used more than you think, and a good old diesel under your feet is a lot more comfortable than a petrol engine on the stern.
Best of luck

 

[ian-]

If you were to go to 21 years old you could have something like https://www.yachtsnet.co.uk/boats/h73917/h73917.htm - no worries about "..... could you go to France", you can stand up below and have a proper galley and heads.

Thank you. Sorry for naive point, but how reliable is an older vessel? I would not own a 21-year old car (any make, any model) as repairs would be inevitable and costly. A good example seems to be a 20 year old car for £10k, e.g. Porche 911. You just know any service / repair bill is going to be a massive chunk from the price you've paid, 20%, 40%, maybe 60%...

But with boats - I am not sure. What am I getting into with an older yacht? - 20% repair bill is £7k!

 

[Praxinoscope]

Hi Ian

How reliable is an older boat? Difficult to define, but my previous boat was over 50 years old 1965 Invicta 26, which I happily sailed for coming on for 20years without any problems apart from replacing the engine just after I purchased her.
Often sailed across Irish Sea and sailed down to Northern Spain in her.
My latest boat is about 35 years old and is great to sail, but perhaps doesn’t have the full comforts that your wife may
demand, but again is perfectly suitable for cross channel sailing. My budget is far lowere than yours (£8k max)
With your budget and a good marine surveyor in tow you will certainly find a boat that won’t let you down and will do everything you want.
Don’t forget though that you will have annual costs including mooring (marinas ouch), insurance, anti-foul, various maintenance lifting in & out etc, and the bigger you go the more expensive these get. Also are you likely to always have a full crew or be just a couple, even on occasions single handed, in which case try looking at boats around the 27’ length. They can be sailed short handed but do give a reasonable degree of comfort.
New boats are not a guarantee of trouble free boating as I’m sure many contributors will testify. A good used boat can be just as reliable and you will get more for your money, often all the bits and pieces that aren’t included when you buy new.
Anyway don’t jump without having a good look around and if you can get a test sail.

 

[richardabeattie]

For £35k you can have my 27ft Sabre with standing head room, a proper loo and comfy beds. I'll throw in a full year of maintenance!

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Thank you. Sorry for naive point, but how reliable is an older vessel? I would not own a 21-year old car (any make, any model) as repairs would be inevitable and costly. A good example seems to be a 20 year old car for £10k, e.g. Porche 911. You just know any service / repair bill is going to be a massive chunk from the price you've paid, 20%, 40%, maybe 60%...

But with boats - I am not sure. What am I getting into with an older yacht? - 20% repair bill is £7k!

Sailing can be as expensive or as cheap (within reason) as you want it to be. It can also be as spartan (rough arsed or primitive) or comfortable as you want it to be.
Much depends on you sailing ambitions and creature comfort expectations. You seem to have very modest sailing ambitions in terms of distance etc excepting you want performance. So if you are happy to day sail in the same environment and don't mind camping in a GRP tent with minimal sanitary and domestic comforts then your First 20 would be OK. People have gone long distances in smaller.
You don't say why you would only keep the boat for 5 years, is that because you think that is the time to sell to avoid depreciation or increased maintenance? You are going to lose money owning and sailing a boat. Or is it that you think you will have tired of it after 5 years. You need to tell us a bit more.
As to the question of 10 year old boats Vs 10 year old cars it is not really valid one could just as easy turn it on its head and say would you not buy a a 20 year old or for that matter 300 year old house.

 

[coveman]

I think comparing cars to boats is probably not of much help.

A lot of the older boats such as Westerly, Sadler,Etap etc were built to a very high standard, arguably to a better standard than some of todays offerings. The depreciation would, I think, be quite substantial in the first year and at present you can get a lot of boat for your money when buying second hand. Be patient, and wait for the right boat for you.
However, get a good survey of the boat and make sure the engine (outboard or inboard) is in good condition as these can represent a high proportion of the cost.


If you are looking for some degree of comfort (ie seperate heads etc) I would have thought you are looking for a boat of 26ft+.

 

[Skylark]

With limited sailing experience, buying a £30-35k 20ft brand new boat is a brave move. Based upon your perfectly reasonable entry level questions, you’ve yet to figure if you’re to be a racer, a day sailer, a weekend camper or a cruising yachtsman. This “dilemma” is perfectly normal. There’s unlikely to be a “one size fits all” boat waiting for you to buy, especially if you think you’ll keep it for 5-10 years.

Sorry to be harsh as I wouldn’t like to pour cold water over anyone’s fun but if/when you can answer some of your own questions, I think you’ll be in a better position to know what you want.

I certainly understand your desire to buy new, I bought new myself, but I wouldn’t buy new unless I knew that it fit my clearly defined requirements.

Chartering is often cited as a good way to gain experience of different vessels; this also includes keel boats.

Another good prospect is to join the local marina/sailing club and offer yourself as crew.

This is meant to be a helpful post!

Welcome to the forum, good luck with your search and I hope you get years of enjoyment on the water.

 

[TLouth7]

• I am based near Brighton (Shoreham actually), the yacht will be moored all year round in local marina
• Used for recreational sailing with wife, faster sailing with friends
• Plan occasionally to stay overnight close to shore with sea permitting e.g. Saturday to Sunday
• Would prefer a new / nearly new yacht for £30-£35k, interior is important for the wife.

My experience:

• 
  .....
• I am completing RYA Level 2 this weekend: Found Level 1 on Delphia 24 boring and was the best sailor in the group, performing Man Overboard manoeuvre better than instructor (in my opinion). Instructor was 19 y.o. but I learned how to prepare the boat, put sails, etc – things that you don’t do on a holiday! Unfortunately, he could not answer how to achieve the fastest route, best tilt for speed, etc. – only provided general comments… I think these are not Level 1 questions, so hope next chap will be more experienced.

Do you have a particular club/marina in mind? Chances are there are certain styles and sizes of yacht that are popular in the area. Going with the consensus will allow you to draw on that experience, and also that sort of boat will likely be suited to the local conditions. It would also make for more interesting racing in the future.

It's good that you have a sense of the sailing that you want to do, but the requirement for a nice interior seems at odds with the choice of yacht. As others have said the cabin in such a small yacht is very much camping. You can go second hand and still get a very smart interior, so don't think you need to go new for that reason.

A small yacht is both a blessing and a curse when it comes to learning. It will be closer in feel to a dinghy, with reduced loads and everything within reach. On the other hand a lightweight boat like the First will be twitchy, with a fairly exciting motion. Great for gripping sailing with friends, but not at all forgiving as you get the hang of it. Something a little longer might give you a better platform to gain experience on.

BTW I am not knocking Firsts, I think that they look pretty great for low cost, exciting, short-handed day-sailing.

A note on your experience, it is good that you are confident, and being able to consistently nail MoB manoeuvres is obviously a good thing. However I urge you to treat these courses as learning experiences and gain as much as possible from the instructors' knowledge. The real challenge of sailing is not going as fast as possible, but being able to deal with all situations effectively (which hopefully your dinghy experience will give you a headstart in). The reason that you will get general answers is that these are general questions, specific to each boat and the conditions it is in. For the fastest route, have a look a polar diagrams (though in general best way to be faster is to sail better, which comes from practice), and the fastest 'tilt' is almost always to have a flat boat.

 

[ian-]

Thank you everyone - your points carry massive weight for me.

Sorry for comparing boats to cars. That seemed logical, but a better way seems to be houses (without land), which changes financial decisions significantly.

In close future (5 years) I do not see sailing for more that 3 consecutive days, maximum. This is partially because I have to be back for work and we may have kids, so it's crazy to be hours from either the wife & kids or be together but hours away from any assistance. A day trip to France with overnight stay in hotel & another day trip back seems to be absolute tops.

After 5 years, if work changes, I may have more time for real adventures, maybe spend a week away, with everyone too.

Thank you for all recommendations, these are really invaluable, I am re-evaluating all options now.

 

[ian-]

Chartering is often cited as a good way to gain experience of different vessels; this also includes keel boats.

Another good prospect is to join the local marina/sailing club and offer yourself as crew.

Sorry I did not include these points. As soon as I get level 2, I plan to join local club and hire a yacht, to try it with the wife. It is perfect weather in Brighton now, so want to enjoy it at sea.