Basic racing question - "left" and "right" side....?

[ds797]

Never really seen "left" and "right" side of course defined.... Let's say a basic Windward-Leeward course with windward mark due north of startline and leeward mark due south of startline...

Presumably going upwind to top mark from start line the left is to the west?

When you round the top mark and go downwind (heading south), is the left side still the west or has it flipped to the east?

In other words is the left and right side related to the course, or the boat?

Thanks

 

[jlavery]

It's flipped.

 

[The Q]

Never had on the water to use such terms, windward leeward yes

If discussing between helm and crew, which way to go, we tend to use landmarks , such as club house, or river side. Or just... Over there...

 

[dunedin]

Never had on the water to use such terms, windward leeward yes

If discussing between helm and crew, which way to go, we tend to use landmarks , such as club house, or river side. Or just... Over there...

I guess on the Broads the course is a bit too narrow to be worrying about upwind strategy in terms of whether “more pressure” on the left side of the course or the right

 

[ds797]

Its a term often used in TV/Youtube Commentary.... for example "The left side of the course is definitely favoured".

Trying to figure out if that "side of the course" stays the same because its the "COURSE" or if it is the "course" in relation to sailing a course on the "leg" of the race. (If that makes any sense and doesn't confuse the issue further!!)

(I've only been sailing 35 years, you'd think I'd know this by now!!)

 

[Puffin10032]

I guess on the Broads the course is a bit too narrow to be worrying about upwind strategy in terms of whether “more pressure” on the left side of the course or the right

Where on Earth did all this "pressure" gobblygook come from? I don't think it originated in the USA because I've got a book on dinghy racing (bought back in circa 1970 when I was very new to the sport) which consists primarily of contributions by the best USA Int 14 sailors of the day (plus one or two from Britain IRC). Nowhere in this book is "pressure" talked about except in terms of atmospheric pressure. And as Science has proven, the stronger the wind the lower the atmospheric pressure. So anybody with even one brain cell will be looking for lower/less (atmospheric) pressure not more!

 

[flaming]

In other words is the left and right side related to the course, or the boat?

Thanks

Boat

 

[The Q]

I guess on the Broads the course is a bit too narrow to be worrying about upwind strategy in terms of whether “more pressure” on the left side of the course or the right

You'd be totally wrong, even for the up to 45ft yachts we can race here, there is often a favoured side, even on a narrow course, as it would depend on what each side is lined with, whether the wind is straight down or up a river or slightly off, whether the tide is with or against you and of course the wind strength.
If the tide is with you then we'll often tack short of the less favoured side.

For instance low tide is 13:41 on 29th July 2024 @ Horning. ( Regatta week)
So the first race in the morning ( ok that's dinghies, but in displacement sailing it still has an effect) will have maximum tide going out , which although its neeps that week you could have 3 or 4 mph out going tide, so a normal south westerly will mean you will use all 200 ft of river width so you tack out of the main river current.

By friday low tide is 05:55, so for the first race will be near enough max tide coming in of 2 to 3 mph, so with a normal south westerly tacking short to stay on the favoured side is more common, tacking in the middle with stronger tides in your favour, to stay on the best wind side of the river.

From my favoured tide time table generator, shorebase.co.uk. / norfolk-broads.org


As for sailing on a effectively non tidal broad, as we will do on 27th 28th July ( water level will go up and down but there's no " flow" except at the broad entrance.)

There is what passes as a hill in Norfolk to the north west with a stand of trees on it, the wind bends round that, chosing which side of the broad is affected by where the wind is strongest in your favour.

If the wind is from the normal south west, it comes over the south west corner of the broad then bends out either side of the centre of its approach, so there is often a favoured side depending on the position of the buoy and your direction of travel after.

A southerly on our river course makes side choice easy. The north west side of the river.



A normal south westerly. Most favouring the south east side of the river.

 

[dunedin]

You'd be totally wrong, even for the up to 45ft yachts we can race here, there is often a favoured side, even on a narrow course, as it would depend on what each side is lined with, whether the wind is straight down or up a river or slightly off, whether the tide is with or against you and of course the wind strength.
If the tide is with you then we'll often tack short of the less favoured side.

For instance low tide is 13:41 on 29th July 2024 @ Horning. ( Regatta week)
So the first race in the morning ( ok that's dinghies, but in displacement sailing it still has an effect) will have maximum tide going out , which although its neeps that week you could have 3 or 4 mph out going tide, so a normal south westerly will mean you will use all 200 ft of river width so you tack out of the main river current.

By friday low tide is 05:55, so for the first race will be near enough max tide coming in of 2 to 3 mph, so with a normal south westerly tacking short to stay on the favoured side is more common, tacking in the middle with stronger tides in your favour, to stay on the best wind side of the river.

From my favoured tide time table generator, shorebase.co.uk. / norfolk-broads.org

View attachment 180123
As for sailing on a effectively non tidal broad, as we will do on 27th 28th July ( water level will go up and down but there's no " flow" except at the broad entrance.)

There is what passes as a hill in Norfolk to the north west with a stand of trees on it, the wind bends round that, chosing which side of the broad is affected by where the wind is strongest in your favour.

If the wind is from the normal south west, it comes over the south west corner of the broad then bends out either side of the centre of its approach, so there is often a favoured side depending on the position of the buoy and your direction of travel after.

A southerly on our river course makes side choice easy. The north west side of the river.

View attachment 180120

A normal south westerly. Most favouring the south east side of the river.
View attachment 180121

Lovely pictures.
And perhaps you missed my smiley
PS have tacked up and down there in Palace when she was new

 

[The Q]

Smiley what's that?

Palace would be fun, she's a bit of a big beast, I've been on board her, but not for actual sailing.. Martham boats lend us a boat for Guardship duties on the 3 Rivers Race. Id recommend something smaller for racing on the rivers though,

Palace

Come down and give it a try here again.
Home
Horning open regatta, 29th july - 2nd August 2024. Probably 2nd to 8th August 2025.

 

[B27]

Top Tip:
Just because you think it's 'logical' and a few people on here agree, don't expect everyone to use ill-defined terms the way you do.
Yotties seem to excel at the noble art of talking at 'cross purposes'.

Always good to clarify with East or West or 'Do you mean "Towards America?"

 

[flaming]

Top Tip:
Just because you think it's 'logical' and a few people on here agree, don't expect everyone to use ill-defined terms the way you do.
Yotties seem to excel at the noble art of talking at 'cross purposes'.

Always good to clarify with East or West or 'Do you mean "Towards America?"

All very true.

However, most use of left/right are intended to tell the helm where to go. I.e "We'll be going left up this beat". Or "at this gate mark, take the left hand mark". Or " After rounding this windward mark we want to favour the right side down wind".

So keep it simple and don't load up the helm with needing to translate what you mean...

 

[B27]

All very true.

However, most use of left/right are intended to tell the helm where to go. I.e "We'll be going left up this beat". Or "at this gate mark, take the left hand mark". Or " After rounding this windward mark we want to favour the right side down wind".

So keep it simple and don't load up the helm with needing to translate what you mean...

So if we're on the committee boat at the leeward end of the course, and the boats are coming towards us, is the left side of the course our left or theirs?

If you were mooching around before the start and someone said 'there's more wind on the left side of the course', wouldn't that mean 'left, looking up wind' ?

A lot of people view the race course in the traditional 'wind blows down the page' mode.
The wing mark in a port triangle is on the left side.
When you're heading downwind, it's on the starboard side of course...

It's why we have 'port and starboard' and they are distinct from 'left and right'.

I did a little experiment after racing and asked if people (other helms) thought the wind was shiftier on the left side or the right side.
What people said was pretty consistent with the 'wind blows down the page' view.
But I wouldn't rely on that if I was a guest on a different boat!

 

[dunedin]

So if we're on the committee boat at the leeward end of the course, and the boats are coming towards us, is the left side of the course our left or theirs?

If you were mooching around before the start and someone said 'there's more wind on the left side of the course', wouldn't that mean 'left, looking up wind' ?

A lot of people view the race course in the traditional 'wind blows down the page' mode.
The wing mark in a port triangle is on the left side.
When you're heading downwind, it's on the starboard side of course...

It's why we have 'port and starboard' and they are distinct from 'left and right'.

I did a little experiment after racing and asked if people (other helms) thought the wind was shiftier on the left side or the right side.
What people said was pretty consistent with the 'wind blows down the page' view.
But I wouldn't rely on that if I was a guest on a different boat!

Most of that is pretty irrelevant - particularly the first point about the committee boat. Discussion about left or right side of the course is generally between helm and crew (dinghy / small keelboat) or tactician and helm (bigger boat). All within the boat.
So as long as they know the meaning between themselves it is fine.
Indeed at close quarters pre start if may be that cryptic / boat specific terminology may be better than widely understood terms - particularly on the known fleet leaders. Otherwise will be listening in to your race strategy.
Hence in the past the occasional loud start countdown for nosey neighbours - intentionally a few seconds out

 

[RunAgroundHard]

... (bugger boat). ... So as long as they know the meaning between themselves it is fine.

Of course.

 

[flaming]

So if we're on the committee boat at the leeward end of the course, and the boats are coming towards us, is the left side of the course our left or theirs?

If you were mooching around before the start and someone said 'there's more wind on the left side of the course', wouldn't that mean 'left, looking up wind' ?

A lot of people view the race course in the traditional 'wind blows down the page' mode.
The wing mark in a port triangle is on the left side.
When you're heading downwind, it's on the starboard side of course...

It's why we have 'port and starboard' and they are distinct from 'left and right'.

I did a little experiment after racing and asked if people (other helms) thought the wind was shiftier on the left side or the right side.
What people said was pretty consistent with the 'wind blows down the page' view.
But I wouldn't rely on that if I was a guest on a different boat!

If you're talking about shiftier wind, then most people would be thinking about the upwind leg, so yes, wind blowing down page.

We also use left and right when talking which way the wind has shifted, not backing and veering.