Balearics cruise pics

[Deleted User YDKXO]

And whenever a P boat is forced to D speed due to the sea state, it's bound to slam like there's no tomorrrow, in a way that just can't compare with a D hull, for any given size.

This sounds like a basis for a good boating magazine article I reckon. Take a typical P boat and a typical D boat of similar length out into some challenging sea conditions and compare how they behave at D speeds. The accepted wisdom seems to be that a D boat will always handle the conditions better, especially into a head sea, but how much better and is this true with seas from every direction?

How about it, MBY? Many P boat owners are increasingly operating their boats at D speeds so it would be an interesting comparison

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Of course, it still makes sense for sleeping better when overnighting, but I'm not sure that the genset+stabs noise is really much better than a bit of rolling...

Ah but you can solve one easily but not the other. A good pair of earplugs will block out the genset/stab noise as well as having the beneficial side effect of blocking out the noise of your SWMBO as well

 

[MapisM]

Ah but you can solve one easily but not the other.

Of course you can, it's just a matter of sipping enough wine before going to bed, job done.
Neither rolling nor SWMBO can be a problem anymore, and you don't need to waste fuel for the genset to run the stabs, either.
Someone call it lateral thinking, as I understand...!

 

[Hurricane]

Ah but you can solve one easily but not the other. A good pair of earplugs will block out the genset/stab noise as well as having the beneficial side effect of blocking out the noise of your SWMBO as well

Can't do that - wouldn't hear my wind alarm!!

 

[jfm]

Oh no, I'm fully aware that P boats are great, when used within their envelope, so to speak. Which is what happened in the situation you described.
Hats off to Match for handling the conditions you described at P speed, but what Nick said is that he reached the point when planing speed wasn't an option anymore, and that's the situation I was commenting on.
Yes, it might take a worse sea state for an 80 footer to reach that point compared to a 60 footer, but there isn't a P boat on this planet - no matter how big - that can keep cruising at 20 knots in ANY kind of head sea without falling apart, period.
And whenever a P boat is forced to D speed due to the sea state, it's bound to slam like there's no tomorrrow, in a way that just can't compare with a D hull, for any given size.
Of course, I'm not pretending that everybody should choose D boats just for the better behaviour in those conditions, which might materialise maybe three times in 10 years - at least for pleasure boaters, as we all are.
But I already conceded that in the last statement of my previous post, I reckon...

Yup, all agreed. It's a complex comparison actually, because of at least 2 things:
1. few folks in the pleasure boat world would choose to out into F7-F8 long-fetch head seas, so it only happens if you' get "caught out". e.g. by real weather being worse than forecast. The 2.5x speed benefit of the P boat (which you don't have to use when you're not trying to escape bad weather) means you are less likely to find yourself in those circumstances
2. As you see from my picture I'm doing 21 knots 60 degrees off the wind. That was the course I wanted, not a course forced by weather, and I could just as easily have done 25knots at 45 degrees off the wind. Anyway let's assume I wanted to go straight into the head sea to get to my destination, and the choice is my P boat or a 10 knot D boat. Lets use the real data in my photo, 21kts and 60 degrees off the head sea. At 21 knots, the P boat can "tack" at angle of 60 degrees off the wind and still go faster (in VMG terms) than the D boat. (cosine 60 = 0.5) Now a D boat might be better in a head sea in some circumstances, but it will take one heck of a sea for the D boat to be better/more comfortable into the head sea than a fin-stabilised P boat at 60 degrees off the head sea. (OK, you could note that the P is burning 10x the fuel, by going 2x the distance AND at P speed!)

I'm not arguing/disagreeing. I'm just saying that choosing how to make the P/D comparison is a complex thing in itself!

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Can't do that - wouldn't hear my wind alarm!!

Um yes, my argument has a fatal flaw

 

[BartW]

.........., it still makes sense for sleeping better when overnighting, but I'm not sure that the genset+stabs noise is really much better than a bit of rolling...

MM You remember that night in Villefranche bay, with a anoying swell fully beam on the wind / position of the boat
in that occasion the noise of stabs and genny was much more comfortable than the shaking without stabs,
I'don't remember at what time in the night I switched them on, but looking back from what we know today, probably a bit too late ;-)

re. swimming in shoppy waters, fully agree that nobody likes that, and better choose another bay, plenty options in Croatia as you know,
but we "almost alway's" have the zero stabs "ON", even in the well protected bays in Croatia,
our experience is that stabilizing a very soft swell, or the occasional bow wave from a passing MY, add's a lot of comfort while sitting or living on the boat
remember our stabs can run on battery's, up to 3 hours authonomy (in combination with all the other loads) ! real live experience !

excuses to Nick for the TD

 

[benjenbav]

Super pix and report. Thanks for posting.

 

[Jack Haines]

This sounds like a basis for a good boating magazine article I reckon. Take a typical P boat and a typical D boat of similar length out into some challenging sea conditions and compare how they behave at D speeds. The accepted wisdom seems to be that a D boat will always handle the conditions better, especially into a head sea, but how much better and is this true with seas from every direction?

How about it, MBY? Many P boat owners are increasingly operating their boats at D speeds so it would be an interesting comparison

Noted. I'll run it past Hugo and see what we can do. What's the betting that we set all of this up and on the test day it is as flat as a pancake?

Superb report Nick, really enjoyed that, thanks.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

MM You remember that night in Villefranche bay, with a anoying swell fully beam on the wind / position of the boat
in that occasion the noise of stabs and genny was much more conveniant than the shaking without stabs,

Yup Mapism might also remember that night in Mezza Luna bay near Carloforte back in June when the swell came in from the SE in the middle of the night with our boats lying to the wind but beam on to the swell. I would have paid a kings ransom for stabilisers and earplugs that night however much wine I'd drunk the night before

 

[Nick_H]

Of course, it still makes sense for sleeping better when overnighting, but I'm not sure that the genset+stabs noise is really much better than a bit of rolling...

I sleep like a baby with the genny and gyro on (through 40 knot winds for example), and of course if you're running the genny you may as well have the airco on as well which makes it even more comfortable in summer. I don't do it often though, despite SWMBO and kids asking me to leave them on every night.

 

[rwoofer]

Just curious whether big Mobos ever use kedge anchors in wavy anchorages? Certainly on my old 45ft sailing boat I would use a kedge anchor to keep the bow pointing in the swell, or sometimes I would rig a bridle so the boat is offset from the direction of pull for the same effect.

On my little mobo, I've used the bridle method a few times.

 

[jfm]

Just curious whether big Mobos ever use kedge anchors in wavy anchorages? Certainly on my old 45ft sailing boat I would use a kedge anchor to keep the bow pointing in the swell, or sometimes I would rig a bridle so the boat is offset from the direction of pull for the same effect.

On my little mobo, I've used the bridle method a few times.

Yes, but rarely. Problem with a bigger mobo is that you are into 25kg kedge plus same again in chain, and production mobos generally don't have anchor handling gear at the stern. You are lucky if there's even somewhere to store all that lot. So it is quite a mission to kedge, even though the benefits are considerable. I do it perhaps 3-5 times a season.
Bridle method is also a faff as boats get bigger. I have found that the amount of trial and erroring in order to get the angle right is too much. you adjust the bridle and it takes 10 mins for the boat to settle. Then you need to adjust it again, and so on. Basically it preoccupies you until its time to go home, so I don't bother any more!
A stern line to shore works well on a mobo, if you're in an anchorage where it is feasible (which Villefrnache isn't, for example)
IIRC a few years ago some company in France made a bolt-on continuously rated stern thruster connected to a fluxgate, designed to keep you pointing into the swell. It wasn't a great idea imho (I wouldn't have one) and I'm not sure whether the firm is still in business

 

[jrudge]

ome company in France made a bolt-on continuously rated stern thruster connected to a fluxgate, designed to keep you pointing into the swell. It wasn't a great idea imho (I wouldn't have one) and I'm not sure whether the firm is still in business


Ohh.... sounds like a winter project ... snag is the need to keep the engine running all night ( my thrusters are hydraulic). So after a weeks cruising you will amass HUGE engine hours - so heading into a marina is cheaper!

We moored next to a Azimut 105 in Sardina. Nice guy and he said he had a kedge that worked really well. He had some launching mechanism, but I did not get to see it.

 

[Hurricane]

Just curious whether big Mobos ever use kedge anchors in wavy anchorages? Certainly on my old 45ft sailing boat I would use a kedge anchor to keep the bow pointing in the swell, or sometimes I would rig a bridle so the boat is offset from the direction of pull for the same effect.

On my little mobo, I've used the bridle method a few times.

We've done it a couple of times and it does work.
However you can't do it in a crowded anchorage unless everyone does it.
Onshore breeze in the evening usually turns to an offshore breeze in the morning - everyone will turn round and potentially bump into you if you are the on;y one with a kedge.

 

[Hurricane]

Yup Mapism might also remember that night in Mezza Luna bay near Carloforte back in June when the swell came in from the SE in the middle of the night with our boats lying to the wind but beam on to the swell. I would have paid a kings ransom for stabilisers and earplugs that night however much wine I'd drunk the night before

Was that the night we were nicely tucked up in the marina having just taken visitors back?

 

[jfm]

keep the engine running all night.

No, it was a bolt on electric. It didn't use your existing thruster. If you were making it now, you'd articulate it so it could thrust backwards to resist fin stabiliser creep-forward. I've suggested it to sleipner!

Scandi boats often have decent kedge anchor handling ssystems but it requires big mods/big kit if you already have a hilo as you and I do

 

[Hurricane]

No, it was a bolt on electric. It didn't use your existing thruster. If you were making it now, you'd articulate it so it could thrust backwards to resist fin stabiliser creep-forward. I've suggested it to sleipner!

Scandi boats often have decent kedge anchor handling ssystems but it requires big mods/big kit if you already have a hilo as you and I do

I've noticed that it doesn't need much thrust from a stern thruster to move the boat quite a lot.
Maybe this idea could work.
The electronics (solid state compass etc) would be easy to design.

 

[admillington]

"Then, after 4 weeks and 1100 NM it was time to fly home, which is always harder when you leave conditions like this behind, but fortunately I'm back again in 3 weeks"

Need to get my work-life balance sorted!