Bad RYA Day Skipper standard!

[Koolie]

Hello to everyone on here!

I went out with a Training School that I did all my RYA sailing courses with this weekend. I was been taken by an RYA Trainer that I have used many times with this company as a refresher weekend. On this weekend there were four other 'students' that have all their Day Skipper pass papers, they achieved their papers at two other schools. Now my skipperr trainer took us all to one side and explained that each of us were to do a skippered passage in the Solent.

My point is being this, The others have their RYA Day Skipper Papers, but none of them have did their theory courses. They could not find information in Almanac, or do a course to steer???????? They had no idea about how to keep our vessel in a safe passage. One even started to go through a race fleet on a port tack, because it was the shortest route!!!!

How can I have been taught so much more by the company I went with, and these others be taught such a low standard????

I will not mention the bad quality schools but I will mention the school which took me from novice to coastal skipper, over two years!!! They were At Sailing Limited, my Teacher was Al Turner, I learnt loads from these,

It just made me not understand how there can be such big seperation between RYA Schools?????????????

DO some schools just put bums on seats and then give out papers?????

I was very lucky to haave choosed such a high standard school, thank goodness it was not one of the two I have been found today???

A question that was asked today as we were finished was, 'would we be happy to take out our familys?' We all said yes! I would want to know when they are out on the water, because I will be at my home!

Thanks Al Turner and At Sailing for another great weekend, I learnt more again this time.

Isaac.

 

[AlJones]

Wow! Koolie thanks for the endorsement!

I am gonna stick up for the RYA.

Now, All RYA schools are scrutinised rigorously to maintain a high standard of instruction and level of competence.

I receive a report every time Kindred Spirit goes out, whether it be for a RYA course or as this weekend was, a 'refresher weekend'. Al is one of our main instructors and he has a passion which is shared by many of his colleagues the industry, sadly not by all though.

I heard all about the standard of the other 'Daized Kippers' and was appalled!!

There are many other schools out there whom have the same high standards as A.T. And you will not be surprised to hear that we all probably know the schools which provide a lesser standard. Same as a Mechanic knowing where bad practises are going on in his industry.

We had our Annual inspection, not three weeks ago, and Tina and I were over the moon with the comments that we received from our inspector.

Anyway, thanks again for your compliments, I will make sure Tina passes on your comments to Al Turner.

Happy to have you aboard, happy to have you aboard again.

Regards
Al Jones,
Principal.

 

[SteveB_Sigma33]

It does seem standards are not standard!

Mate of mine was telling me about his yacht master and what a farce that was. People not knowing about transits, hitting pontoons and heading into foul tides etc, strangely enough all of the candidates passed when some of them had committed some right howlers.

However, that said I do the courses for my education and the satisfaction that I do know how to do things. That said as a yacht master I would not necessarily trust another yacht master until I had sailed with them for a while and felt comfortable that they knew what they were about.

 

[rich]

Al, I have been at it for about 45 years, do I realy need a bit of paper with a stamp on it? or should I just give up something I realy enjoy doing /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

 

[AlJones]

No you don't.

A cert is not a requirement for all,..............yet.

You, as I, have many more miles and years of experience that no cert can give us. However, I was asked by several here at Heybridge Basin what quals I had, and I felt that I would like to have some form of cert to assist me in my chosen profession and for the 1,000's of miles, the five Atlantic crossings, the trips around the Horn, the trips to the ice I have achieved.

I, as a fellow sea farer, understand that there are many sailors that have eons of experience and no quals, and as we know, you can have the quals and no experience, I know who I would be happier to go to sea with.

I am happy with what I have achieved on the high seas, and most of those were prior to passing my RYA courses, now I have the RYA certs also, it aint a bad thing to have,...........................is it?

I like the earlier comment made by our learnerd friend that there are some real howlers out there. I agree, experience counts, and prove to me you know what you say you can do attitude can be a life saving attitude!!

Fair winds, and happy sea miles Rich,

Al.

 

[wotayottie]

First thing to be said is that it isnt necessary for Day Skipper practical candidates to have done the theory course. I reckon this is an error on the RYA's part because there is no way on a 5 day practical course that an instructor can cover the practical skills, manage the course / boat and give the same coverage to the theory that you do in 40 hours or more of classroom work plus the usual homework. But thats the RYA policy and it also applies at YM level.

You can argue the toss about the importance of mistakes, but you need to be realistic and allow some. The decider when I did my YM was "would I allow you to take my daughter on a trip across the channel" as explained by the master mariner doing the examining. And I made a mistake - a course to steer out by 180 degrees - quickly corrected and still passed. Clearly there would be a lesser standard for day skipper

Dont worry about approaching a fleet of boats on port tack as long as you are prepared to give way. The fact that they are racing is irrelevant - colregs still apply to them. In any case, you often get that situation within the fleet itself. Add a bit of excitement to your sail!

Well done to Al Turner

 

[fireball]

Pity not all instructors actually know how to handle their boat!!

An instructor we were berthed next to on Sat night couldn't reverse his boat out of the slot between 2 other moored boats without having to tie on to one - and still managed to collide (in a slightly controlled manner with fenders out) with the other. Granted, his Salder 34 seemed to have plenty of Port propwalk, but had he not worked out how to shoot the stern round using forward gear?

The way he was briefing everyone and getting warps to other boats we assumed that one of the students was going to take it out, but no - he was doing this maneuver himself .... it wasn't just me - the skippers from the charter boats next to us (pro skippers) said they didn't want to watch either!!

 

[curve]

I have sailed with a number of companies in the Solent where people had been completing their various RYA certificates. I have only ever seen one person fail their Day Skipper mostly because they had signed up for the course with no sailing experience at all. All of the other candidates I could judge were more than capable of Day Skipper. Some were a little hesitant at the start of the course but they developed in confidence and ability during the week. Sailors have mishaps all the time and it is important to learn from your mistakes.

I have even been with what some people consider the worst RYA training company and yet I have sailed with the best and most trustworthy skippers with this company and I don't hesitate about sailing with them again.

 

[flaming]

I agree that the theory ought to be compulsory. As others have said it is very hard for an instructor to teach the theory and the practical in just 5 days.

However, I would add this. How long ago did these dodgy day skippers do the course, and have they sailed since?

If it's been a couple of years and they've not sailed since then it's perhaps not too suprising that they have forgotten a few things.
And given that they were on a refresher course, that's perhaps quite likely and indicates that they were sensible and aware of their limitations.

This is why I always used to say "well done, you're now a day skipper - now go sailing!"

 

[Koolie]

Hello again,

I have readed that an instructor will be difficult to teach theory and practical in 5 days!!

Well the RYA say you can do a theory and practical combined but that it be 9 day course!!!

These people were absolutly abismal at all aspects of being incharge of a vessel at sea. When Al Turner asked them a questions, their combined answer was, " Oh we wern't teached that". Maybe a get out, but hey, it was a frustrating weekend, we couldn't get everything done that I have wanted.

Thanks AT Sailing for your answer, and for your offer of a reduced rate weekend to make up for it! Again I come back!!!

Isaac.

 

[BlueSkyNick]

[ QUOTE ]

One even started to go through a race fleet on a port tack, because it was the shortest route!!!!

[/ QUOTE ]
Nothing wrong with this, as long as you prepared to give way to any boats who have right of way per COLREGS.

 

[fireball]

I went through a fleet of keel boats on Port tack on Saturday ... didn't have much choice though - they were beating using the whole channel and I was running down - poled out Genoa etc etc .... watched them very carefully and they all realised that it was quicker to avoid a "collision avoidance" situation to start with - so timed their tacks to miss me - for my part I held a straight course and acknowledged them as they passed ...
Interestingly - and rather predictably the closest encounters were with those at the rear of the fleet ....

 

[webcraft]

[ QUOTE ]
An instructor we were berthed next to on Sat night couldn't reverse his boat out of the slot between 2 other moored boats without having to tie on to one - and still managed to collide (in a slightly controlled manner with fenders out) with the other.

[/ QUOTE ] It sounds to me as though he was demonstrating to relative beginners how to get out of that berth safely and in a controlled manner under certain conditions of wind and tide. Standard teaching practice is explanation followed by demonstration followed by hands on.

Using warps can be a very effective way of getting out of a berth safely, while going alongside another boat in a controlled manner is often the safest option when for example entering an upwind berth with a boat already on the downwind finger. Not all boats reverse with equal facility of course. For beginners, teaching them the safest method is the way to go. They can become hot shot racers reversing out of their berths at full speed and spinning the boat around in its own length once they have their own boat.

I think your comment on this manoevre as reflecting poorly on the boat handling abilities of the instructor merely shows that you did not understand what you were watching. Any RYA Yachtmaster Instructor gets far more experience at boat handling in confined spaces than you ever will.

- W

 

[fireball]

I think your post is condescending!

Whilst I am not perfect I have been boating for over 30 years and have been an RYA instructor. I had no problem with his line to another vessel, I had no problem with his explaining actions to the students, however I and other COMMERCIAL skippers where flabbergasted at the way he actually handled the manoeuvre - still hitting the boat he was trying to avoid.

Having skippered a boat that would only reverse in one direction I am aware of how to get out of tight spaces - in yesterdays ideal conditions (no wind and the tide against him - giving him more water speed over the rudder) he failed to achieve his aim.

[ QUOTE ]
Any RYA Yachtmaster Instructor gets far more experience at boat handling in confined spaces than you ever will.

[/ QUOTE ] However - it is apparent that experience doesn't mean that they can actually handle the boat well does it!

I suggest you think about questioning other peoples experience when they comment on anothers - you have never met me and could not possibly know my level of experience - as far as you know I could be an RYA Yachtmaster Instructor myself ...

 

[wotayottie]

Given the standard that an RYA Yachtmaster instructor has to reach, my suspicion is that that person was a stand-in not an instructor. Though having said that I did my YM on a Benny First with 30 degrees (not exagerating!) of play betweeen rudder stock and rudder. Try accurate sailing with that.

The RYA are cr*p at checking the qualifications of people used to instruct - someone I know was regularly running shorebased courses without even a DS himself. Mind you, he was good so the students didnt lose out.

 

[seasprite]

Dear Mr Bowles

I see from your profile that you are one of those computer dorks!!

Heckles up? Are they?

I made an assumption on YOUR standard of work, hurts doesn't it?

Anyway, I did my course with Mr Turner, The welsh Adonis that he is, with his calves, OHHHHH those calves!!!! And with AT Sailing, they are different from the rest.

I feel that there are different standards out there Koolie, I believe that some certificates are purchased from schools for attending a five day course. I am happy that I learnt from Skips Turner, and that I know my limitations.

My Husband commanded a destroyer in the Royal Navy, he taught me that as soon as you think you have mastered the task of being at sea, Mother Nature will come and throw something new at you, just to remind you that you do not know it all. It is a progressive art, an enjoyable time on the water comes with time and experience.

How many of you here are subconsciously competent or in-competent? I wonder who will answer truthfully!

D.X

 

[fireball]

Qualified or not - he was booked through a school and was definitely teaching an RYA course ...

I have taught RYA dinghy courses before I had qualified myself - however, I was instructing under the guidance of a senior instructor - who briefed me (and others) on the required methods before we all went afloat....

 

[webcraft]

Fireball,

My apologies. There was however nothing in your post to suggest your wealth of experience, and it is easy for a casual observer to misinterpret a teaching session, particularly if it deliberately involves the use of springs and/or deliberately coming alongside another vessel.

Obviously you do understand such manoevres and teaching practices, and can therefore say with confidence that the guy in charge appeared to be a bit incompetent on this occasion. I find it very surprising, but as others have said he was probably just a 'hired hand' with little teaching experience. (Although he would still be a YM Offshore with commercial endorsement and a Cruising Instructor qualification based on an assessment by the principal of a sailing school)

My post wasn't intended to be condescending - but there are a lot of people on these fora who miss no opportunity to have a go at the RYA and deride those who go on courses. I have seen one or two of these 'old salts' - 30 years experience, no-one can teach me anything, training rubbish nonsense etc - demonmstrate some piss-poor seamanship and a lack of understanding of some aspects of sailing that beggars belief.

Something in your bio would help, but no doubt Brendan has convinced you that your soul will be stolen if you even tell people what type of boat you sail.

Once again - sorry if I appeared condescending.

- W

 

[webcraft]

Dear Donna,

What on earth was all that about? I wasn't commenting on anyone's standard of work except to defend it. If you read my post more carefully you would have seen that I was suggesting that the instructor DID know what he was doing and that Fireball had misinterpreted the situation. He says that this was not the case and I have apologised to Fireball for appearing condescending.

I see that from YOUR profile that you are a dentist, one of those alleged professionals who make a small fortune yet probably can't be bothered to work for the National Health Service that trained you.

There, now you have been randomly insulted by a complete stranger. Are YOUR heckles up? (Actually I think it is hackles . . . )

This place is getting more like the Lounge every day - for goodness sake calm down you lot.

- W

 

[fireball]

WC - I accept your apology - you're right, there is nothing in my Bio that suggests who I am or what my experience is - I don't wish there to be. However, I think I post enough here to expose enough about my experiences!

There are two sides to each story and you are entitled to question my version of events, however, I was there, it wasn't just my opinion (SWMBO and a pro skipper held the same concerns) so whilst using a line to help you out of a berth is an acceptable method I don't think that colliding with the vessel you are trying to miss is good enough for an RYA Instructor - even when you have fenders out - no damage appeared to be done (fenders took it all) - but they really shouldn't have been needed ...

Perhaps someone can answer - just how difficult is it to go astern in a Sadler 34? .... My Jen SO30 is simple - very little propwalk there is loads of control ...