Bad RYA Day Skipper standard!

WC- Mmmmm! I have been a tad quick to fire a broadside I feel. For that I apologise.

National health eh?

I joined the Royal Navy as a Dental Surgery Assistant, then I became a Dental Hygienist, then the Andrew Sponsored me through Guys hospital dental Training, so no it wasn't the NHS. I now do have my own practice and yes I am enjoying the fruits of MY labours, do I feel guilty, do I heck as like!!!

I smile with the ring of Colgate Confidence about me!!!!

D. x
 
Whilst the RYA continue to teach and certify their practical and theory qualifications separately you will always have a problem.

The RYA are about 20 years behind in terms of how skills are taught and assessed when compared to mainstream awarding bodies for professional occupations.

Even the Dept of Transport insists on learner drivers having to pass a theory and practical within a defined time limit.
One day the RYA will not allow 5 day courses to qualify, insisting on a portfolio of evidence demonstrating knowledge and skills across a wide range of sailing conditions, over a much longer period of time to ensure learning has been confirmed.

But I expect that will take a long time.
 
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One day the RYA will not allow 5 day courses to qualify, insisting on a portfolio of evidence demonstrating knowledge and skills across a wide range of sailing conditions, over a much longer period of time to ensure learning has been confirmed.

But I expect that will take a long time.

[/ QUOTE ] Yes, and when it happens many fewer people will take the courses - unless of course they are made compulsory. The RYA cruising scheme is a voluntary training scheme at a price people can afford and a level that is not too offputting. Your alternative sounds like a compulsory scheme which would be very expensive.

The RYA does in fact insist on a 'portfolio of evidence' even for Day Skipper, in the form of a log of your sailing experience. The Day Skipper course results in a course completion certificate rather than an examined qualification and is designed to bring people to a minimum level of competence which will allow them to skipper a yacht in familiar waters by day. A certificate is not awarded where the instructor feels that a candidate has not reached this standard. IMO it is a lot better than nothing.

Those who choose to do so can go on to eventually sit the YM Offshore practical exam. This cannot be passed without having a good grasp of navigational theory and seamanship. Candidates have to produce a logbook with a minimum of 2,500 miles in it and will usually - sometimes quite subtly - be asked some pretty searching questions on their experience.

Is that the sort of thing you are thinking of, or is there something wrong with the Yachtmaster qualification as well?

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Even the Dept of Transport insists on learner drivers having to pass a theory and practical within a defined time limit.

[/ QUOTE ] Well, isn't it a bit strange then that the Yachtmaster certificate is happily commercially endorsed by the same Department of Transport?

I often wonder what particular chip those who knock the RYA's cruising scheme have on their shoulders . . . as far as I can see it is doing nothing but good.

- W
 
Jeesh!

Well, since I've just re-insured by boat for single-handing in the channel, I asked my broker if having an RYA YM qualification would reduce the premium.

He said "No". Why? "The qualification has no bearing on actual experience". That's his opinion.

Before I get sniped at, I ought to say he specialises in Old wooden boats who's owners are on the wrong side of youth, and the boats are generally too slow to get out of their own way.

I was intending to 'actually get round' to doing it next year but I think I'll save my money. I don't charter and I'm unlikely to go anywhere to meet a pompous gonk wanting to see paperwork (that includes London). I'll deal with my diesel problem later.
 
"The Day Skipper course ---------------------is designed to bring people to a minimum level of competence which will allow them to skipper a yacht in familiar waters"
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The essence of this statement being "a minimum level of competence"!

Regarding the start of this thread, it cannot be sensible, for any RYA School, to allow anyone to obtain a D/S certificate, if they cannot demonstrate this 'a minimum level of competence'.

Pupils who have no previous sailing/boating experience, shouldn't simply have a few 'days' on a boat & expect to be 'fully qualified' to then charter & simply sail away with an equally inexperienced crew.

Most, hopefully are aware of their limitations.

There is no mandatory requirement for doing a theory course before a practical. But, on the practical course, students put into practice those things they have learned on their theory courses.

How can anyone, without ANY previous knowledge, manage to work out 'a course to steer', understand a chart, carry out a fix, etc, unless the instructor takes time away from the others to teach them?

There doesn't have to be a formalised time for learning the theory, but the element which remains is still 'time'. Time, which might be spent on other things.
 
We did our Day Skipper 10 yrs ago so my comments might not be relevant today but when the certificate was handed to SWMBO the instructor commented that the certificate only demonstrated that the necessary course content had been demonstrated and taught strongly inferring that he did not consider SWMBO as competent!

I have gone as crew on a YM exam and seen some poor performance/knowledge demonstrated by candidates that had a weeks prep course behind them.

I think we can all be a little harsh in judging others. Many doing the courses do not have their own boat and have only got their experience by chartering or crewing for others. Many have crewed for many miles and really believe they have understood the skippers decisions but find its another thing altogether when you have to make that decision unaided.

I believe many problems are because instructors etc can be too helpful and do guide you when you get stuck.

When I teach my crew to passage plan I go and have a shower so that they do complete it on their own or know that they are stuck. Its always tempting to jump in and help but I think its necessary that they understand and then correct any limitations by having to ask for assistance.

Likewise when I hand over the watch having shown the others what to do including the use of MARPA. I state wake me if you need my help and then pretend to sleep on deck while listening to their deliberations of whether to slow down or go in front or behind of a ship in the channel. Its only by being left alone do people really learn judgement including their limitations/inexperience. If you stand beside them I believe you make it too easy for them to ask you to confirm every minor decision.

I am also cautious regarding criticism of others ability to manoeuvre a boat. The wind and currents stand every ready to show how human we all are. Last weekend a passer by complimented my reversing into a berth at Cherbourg but as hard as I try and practise the next one will possibly be a cock up!! If I sometimes don't get it right on my own boat what chance have others got, often on unfamiliar boats with varying amounts of windage/prop walk and often far less frequently than many of us.

Sorry but I think for some a bit of humility may be in order before the next fall.

What is really good is the high standard of the vast majority of RYA instructors and that most candidate want to learn and put themselves on these courses. The RYA technique appears to be to encourage and make the courses enjoyable instead of a nerve racking examination experience.

IMHO the RYA courses do a pretty good job.

For the avoidance of doubt I am not a RYA instructor nor have any connection but merely get enjoyment if I encourage any of my crew to want to learn more and go on the courses of the sport I love.
 
Sorry but I think for some a bit of humility may be in order before the next fall.
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?????
 
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One even started to go through a race fleet on a port tack, because it was the shortest route!!!!

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Nothing wrong with this, as long as you prepared to give way to any boats who have right of way per COLREGS.

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I was wondering about this statement too. Although not against the rules, I see it as against the spirit of the regs, bad seamanship even. To purposely put yourself on stbd to gain right of way over other traffic should be reason (I am sorry for this) for you not to receive your certificate either.

If I caught the helm doing this on my boat, disappointed would be the least of the verbs they would experience.

Poor show imho.
 
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Pupils who have no previous sailing/boating experience, shouldn't simply have a few 'days' on a boat & expect to be 'fully qualified' to then charter & simply sail away with an equally inexperienced crew.

[/ QUOTE ] No-one has a 'right' or 'qualification' to charter a yacht. I don't think there are too many charter companies who simply want to see a Day Skipper course completion certificate. Most of them ask for a sailing CV or summary of experience to be sent with the booking form. Similarly, thousands of people with no qualifications charter every year because the charter companies trust their sailing resumes.

If I sign someone off as a Day Skipper I am at pains to point out the limitations of the certificate, which should be seen as a beginning, as a minimum level of competence. I do however encourage them to take a charter as soon as possiblke, as this is the only way they are really going to learn to be a skipper. It is up to the charter company to decide whether or not to charter them a yacht.

I can't really see where you are coming from Alant as it says in your bio that you are an RYA instructor, yet you seem to be belittling the organisation and its courses - or have I misunderstood your last post?

- W
 
No-one has a 'right' or 'qualification' to charter a yacht. I don't think there are too many charter companies who simply want to see a Day Skipper course completion certificate.
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Don't think I said anyone had a 'right' to charter.

However, I do know that bareboat charters are available for someone who has just completed their D/S course.

"have I misunderstood your last post?"

Yes you have.
 
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I do know that bareboat charters are available for someone who has just completed their D/S course

[/ QUOTE ] That is up to the charter company isn't it?

There is no confusion over what a Day Skipper course completion certificate implies, and the charter company deserves everything they get if they do not ask for a sailing resume in addition to the DS course completion certificate.

I am afraid I still fail to see what your point is. DS is what it is, and it does what it says on the tin.


- W
 
According to the law, no training or experience is needed to take a boat out in the UK or Ireland. Anybody can buy a boat, jump into it, point it at the harbour mouth and go.

You don't NEED a Day Skipper or a Yachtmaster or any other bit of paper to go sailing. The only thing you might need a bit of paper for is chartering, and the ICC is a lot easier to get than the Day Skipper - and is accepted by most charter companies. If you are only interested in a piece of paper for the charter companies or overseas authorities, then the ICC is the ticket for you - and its dead easy to get.

This is why the RYA and ISA argue strongly for voluntary training. By putting responsibility for skills development on individuals instead of on licensing authorities they get away from the idea that 'I have a license, therefore I'm entitled to whatever'. The idea is to encourage people to take responsibility for themselves.

And, amazingly, this system works. Most people are NOT merely interested in bits of paper and genuinely want to develop their skills. Indeed, that is why those theory-deficient Dayskippers were doing a (legally and bureaucratically unnecessary but nevertheless vital) refresher course.

Not only is leisure boating an extremely safe activity, but the RYA system is copied and used the world over, including by the RNLI (which, incidentlaly, is another organisation that emphasises the spirit of self-responsibility).

The insurance companies agree - after all, marine insurance is a lot cheaper than car insurance.

There are differing standards within any group or organisation, but whatever the RYA is doing, it does seem to be working.
 
I think thread has moved tack a tad.

I think that the original was, how come the school gave out a certificate to pupils that seemed to have NO clue of what to do!! Nothing to do with what bit of paper!

How can some schools just give out a cert when the student has not shown any aptitude, or ability to carry out an evolution, let alone being able to skipper a yacht in daylight in familiar waters?????????

D.x
 
Sailing log books are about as valid as a pumped up CV. No more than a diary open to interpretation. Hardly confirmed evidence of competence. Useful as an indicator of experience only.

Compulsory qualification scheme – oh no not that old debate again. How many more times do we have to listen to that one as the excuse for giving out pseudo qualifications that are just a piece of paper. It about improving the quality of the system - not forcing it on new sailors and skippers with legislation.

Costs will rise if we have assess competence over a longer period of time ? The whole RYA scheme is already commercially driven. Can’t see all those sailings schools putting themselves out of business by charging beyond the customers capability to pay. They will adapt just as private training providers and colleges have had to since the introduction of continouse assessment for verify competence based professional qualifications in the late 1980’s.

Chip on my shoulder - Knocking the RYA scheme ? No just highlighting the over due changes that need to take-place to the process of assessment not the awarding body of the standards set. Basically it is out of date and behind with the times.

Think I’ll become an electrician or maybe plumber next week. Any one know where I can go on a 5 day course to get “qualified” for life ?
 
Well, I disagree - I think that the RYA scheme is pretty good all things considered. I am also a part-time teacher in a secondary school and I bet you have a lot to say about that as well, don't you?

I see you describe yourself in your bio as a 'Learning & Development Consultant' - for which I am afraid I read spinning chancer who charges people a fortune for spouting random buzzspeak gleaned from airport bookstore self-improvement manuals

So as you can see, I think even less of your opinion than you do of mine. Sorry, don't take it personally.

- W
 
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Think I’ll become an electrician or maybe plumber next week. Any one know where I can go on a 5 day course to get “qualified” for life ?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, but in a couple of days you can "qualify" as a Scuba Diver....Put Another Dollar In....sorry, I mean add another day you can then become an Advanced Scuba Diver........yer don't need to know how to swim more than 10 yards (Trust me /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif)

IMO RYA courses much the same, both a very good idea to learn the basics (and to have a recognised piece of paper to wave around on holiday) - but only a start.......and whenever a commercial organisation is involved in training and qualification (of any sort) then <u>commercial</u> considerations will always apply.

And of course some instructors / companies will simply be better than others, and their are also always those who bend the rules too far - cos' that's just how life is.
 
Some schools are very good and take skill levels into consideration. When I went on a combined PB2/Advanced mobo course, I was warned that my skill levels were already well beyond what were needed for the courses.

The instructor designed a course for me that not only gave me the qualifications, but also made me reach for them, and I learnt a great deal. He also asked if he could bring trainee instructors along for parts of it, which made things very collaborative, and we all learnt a great deal more than the basic courses would have provided.
 
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