Avoid creating risk of collision

[benjenbav]

At the risk of drifting the thread, does anyone know how the misconception arose that when a boat is racing it becomes the stand on vessel in almost any circumstance when it meets a boat that's not racing?

Sometimes it's just arrogance ('I know the rules but I'm going to ignore them because I'm a superior being') but I get the feeling that sometimes a racing crew genuinely believes it's written in some regulation or code and that I'm just an ignorant cruising sailor who's never been taught it.

Of course, competent racing crews know the rules and follow them, more or less.

When I used to race (almost back in the days of Sir Thomas Lipton ) I think we were briefed in a general way to avoid cruisers. But I’m quite certain that none of us took any notice of that if it meant losing a marginal advantage over our competitors.

 

[B27]

At the risk of drifting the thread, does anyone know how the misconception arose that when a boat is racing it becomes the stand on vessel in almost any circumstance when it meets a boat that's not racing?

Sometimes it's just arrogance ('I know the rules but I'm going to ignore them because I'm a superior being') but I get the feeling that sometimes a racing crew genuinely believes it's written in some regulation or code and that I'm just an ignorant cruising sailor who's never been taught it.

Of course, competent racing crews know the rules and follow them, more or less.

I spent a lot of time around the solent and the only time I ever heard anyone on a boat 'racing' claim right of way was hailing other boats from other fleets who had not yet started., or a boat which had finished.

Under racing rules, if you out out to race, you are subject to the rules the whole time you are in the race area.
One of those rules is that a boat which is not racing shall keep clear of a boat which is.
So boats whose preparatory signal has been not been made, or a boat which has finished and cleared the line, or retired, has to keep clear of boats which are actually racing. It is quite common to need to remind people of this in events like RTIR

I've never heard a racing boat demand that a cruising boat keep out of the way.
The way people go on about it on forums you'd think it was happening all the time.
I think it's an urban myth. Probably goes back to a Peyton cartoon or something.
Perhaps it's an East Coast thing?

Personally I think it's good manners to keep out of the way of a race where possible.
There may also be LNTMs or local regulations requiring boats to keep clear of some events.

There many ignorant cruising sailors who don't understand rule 13
There are some sailors, both racing and cruising, who might sometimes struggle to visualise the multiple requirements of colregs in a 15 boat situation if you choose to get close to a racing mark. Including me!

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Taking early action to prevent collisions is implicit in the regs. If you’re cruising, and theres a bunch of boats shouting at each other sailing round a mark, it’s gonna be pretty hard to stay the right of way boat if you just sail on in there regardless. Besides being hideous bad manners when there's all that ocean to sail in. But meeting the odd racer just sailing along, colregs apply, and most likely they will be taking account of you anyway. Your wind shadow, even if motoring, might ruin their race. Unless they’re useless tail end charlies that know nothing, you will have no trouble keeping clear, or being kept clear of.

 

[SaltyC]

I spent a lot of time around the solent and the only time I ever heard anyone on a boat 'racing' claim right of way was hailing other boats from other fleets who had not yet started., or a boat which had finished.

Under racing rules, if you out out to race, you are subject to the rules the whole time you are in the race area.
One of those rules is that a boat which is not racing shall keep clear of a boat which is.
So boats whose preparatory signal has been not been made, or a boat which has finished and cleared the line, or retired, has to keep clear of boats which are actually racing. It is quite common to need to remind people of this in events like RTIR

I've never heard a racing boat demand that a cruising boat keep out of the way.
The way people go on about it on forums you'd think it was happening all the time.
I think it's an urban myth. Probably goes back to a Peyton cartoon or something.
Perhaps it's an East Coast thing?

Personally I think it's good manners to keep out of the way of a race where possible.
There may also be LNTMs or local regulations requiring boats to keep clear of some events.

There many ignorant cruising sailors who don't understand rule 13
There are some sailors, both racing and cruising, who might sometimes struggle to visualise the multiple requirements of colregs in a 15 boat situation if you choose to get close to a racing mark. Including me!

I personally have never had a problem with racing boats, generally if able I will make an early and obvious alteration, another minute of my time is irrelevant 10 secs on theirs could be decisive to their result.

There are times where I have had to hold course with no problems, usually when crossing a fleet.

I spent 1 hour passing the Lizard West to East on starboard tack approx 5 years ago ducking and diving around Open 60's on port heading for the Fastnet - the pleasure of watching them pass was greater than the inconvenience, possibly acknowledged by a wave as they passed.

Unfortunately, both camps have those who may be less than conversant with the rules, may have misjudged or just want to push their right to stand on.

 

[awol]

Unfortunately, both camps have those who may be less than conversant with the rules, may have misjudged or just want to push their right to stand on.

If a risk of colision exists then it is not a "right" to be "pushed", or not, but an "obligation".

 

[Chiara’s slave]

If a risk of colision exists then it is not a "right" to be "pushed", or not, but an "obligation".

If a risk of collision exists, the obligation is completely on the give way boat to keep clear.. if you have rights you should stand on until it’s obvious that only action by you will avoid a collision. Otherwise, confusion will reign. We as a race boat rely heavily on that, in close interactions.

 

[jfm]

Hello,
a Colregs question
Is there any provision in the Colregs (or court cases/interpretation) for a vessel not to create risk of collision? Specifically risk of collision, not close quarter situation of course.
Example: two motor vessels and a crossing situation develops, given their respective speed/courses one will pass well in front of the other so no risk of collision, no action taken by either one.
What if one of the vessels suddenly stops exactly in front of the other one, thus creating a risk of collision? Say it anchors and puts the anchor ball at a dangerous distance from the approaching other vessel.
Is there any provision that could prevent him to do so?

Just returning to the original question and answering it a bit precisely. There is no rule saying you may not create a risk of collision, nor should there be. If I'm miles from you and hold my course, and you hold yours, and we are on collision trajectories but 5 miles apart, then by carrying on we both create (at some ill defined point) a risk of collision. That's fine and it should not be prohibited. The rules just tell you what to do once there is collision risk.

Turning to your example, as a matter of logic, if the very act of stopping caused caused the collision risk then the boat that stopped was either give way and should have taken some action other than stopping, or was stand on and should not have stopped, and so was in contravention of the rules already, without there needing to be a "do not create a collision risk" rule as well.

Alternatively if there is a lot of distance between the two crossing boats, and one anchors in the trajectory of the other at a distance when there is no collision risk, then the moving boat needs to avoid the now-anchored boat, once risk of collision occurs.

It's worth considering how bad a rule saying you must not cause risk of collision would be. How far back would you go? How would you determine the point at which an offence was committed? At the time you left home that morning to go to your boat? That would be madness, so you would need perhaps to create a rule saying that when you did something that was the proximate cause of a risk of a collision you committed the offence, but what would be the point of such a rule if all the other rules were complied with so as to avoid an actual collision? Would you be prepared to prosecute someone for causing a collision risk when no collision occurred? If not, there is no point in having the rule. And if there was an actual collision where the stand on boat caused the risk in the first place, how do you apportion blame between the give way boat that failed to give way and the stand on boat who correctly stood on but was the creator the collision risk?

In other news, people mentioned above whether a stand on boat is allowed to tack. That was all settled in the Roanoak case, where iirc a sailing boat necessarily tacked at the edge of a channel instead of holding course and speed, and was found to be in the right by the court.

By the way, although I think the answer to this question is clear enough, as a general point I think Colregs is a terrible document. Full of poor drafting, illogicalities, conflicting rules, etc, and using the "risk" concept is arguably dumb to begin with.

 

[finestgreen]

.

 

[Roberto]

In other news, people mentioned above whether a stand on boat is allowed to tack. That was all settled in the Roanoak case, where iirc a sailing boat necessarily tacked at the edge of a channel instead of holding course and speed, and was found to be in the right by the court.

By the way, although I think the answer to this question is clear enough, as a general point I think Colregs is a terrible document. Full of poor drafting, illogicalities, conflicting rules, etc, and using the "risk" concept is arguably dumb to begin with.

Thank you

Sailboats may tack for several reasons even with plenty of water available all around, let's take away the "necessarily" tacking in a channel, while in the open seas that would make it possible for, say, an IMOCA with VMG 15kt to repeatedly tack in front of a ship going to windward with the same speed: the ship should give way and change course, once the sailboat is clear the ship takes back its original course. The sailboat tacks and the ship is give way again, so the ship must change its course until the sailboat is clear and only then can take back its original course again. On and on.
I suppose after the first couple of crossings some nasty words would be heard on the radio.
What if the sailboat passes clear through the bow of the ship, but tacks at a very short distance making the ship give way again, but making it very difficult for the ship to maneuver?
Far from being theoretical questions

 

[wonkywinch]

I spent a lot of time around the solent and the only time I ever heard anyone on a boat 'racing' claim right of way was hailing other boats from other fleets who had not yet started., or a boat which had finished.

The Solent is also my home ground and I am always considerate of racing and do what I can to keep out of the way, however, quite often courses are set up crossing the North Channel and it can be too shallow to pass clear. Planning my strategy to avoid any competitor having to adjust his course (and potentially lose position or the race), I have twice been rudely shouted at or had a whistle blown by a rib driver "tack now" when I was the stand on vessel (but had a tack in mind in any case). Anyone would think they own the sea

 

[johnalison]

The Solent is also my home ground and I am always considerate of racing and do what I can to keep out of the way, however, quite often courses are set up crossing the North Channel and it can be too shallow to pass clear. Planning my strategy to avoid any competitor having to adjust his course (and potentially lose position or the race), I have twice been rudely shouted at or had a whistle blown by a rib driver "tack now" when I was the stand on vessel (but had a tack in mind in any case). Anyone would think they own the sea

That is just the sort of situation where one needs to have one's retort ready - but never does.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

The Solent is also my home ground and I am always considerate of racing and do what I can to keep out of the way, however, quite often courses are set up crossing the North Channel and it can be too shallow to pass clear. Planning my strategy to avoid any competitor having to adjust his course (and potentially lose position or the race), I have twice been rudely shouted at or had a whistle blown by a rib driver "tack now" when I was the stand on vessel (but had a tack in mind in any case). Anyone would think they own the sea

The rib driver, not the race boats. Just let him know you’ve seen and taken note of the race area and will keep clear in your own way.

 

[Stemar]

We went there for Points Week, last year. We moored the tri on a public buoy opposite the club almost. My poor wife spent about half an hour one morning avoiding a collision with X80, who was attempting to make ground against both wind and tide. Every tack they arrived back to our moored boat, and had to be fended off by foot. They upbraided her severely for unladylike language

Am I right in thinking that a non-racing boat can protest a racer? If so, what's the procedure?

 

[awol]

Thank you

Sailboats may tack for several reasons even with plenty of water available all around, let's take away the "necessarily" tacking in a channel, while in the open seas that would make it possible for, say, an IMOCA with VMG 15kt to repeatedly tack in front of a ship going to windward with the same speed: the ship should give way and change course, once the sailboat is clear the ship takes back its original course. The sailboat tacks and the ship is give way again, so the ship must change its course until the sailboat is clear and only then can take back its original course again. On and on.
I suppose after the first couple of crossings some nasty words would be heard on the radio.
What if the sailboat passes clear through the bow of the ship, but tacks at a very short distance making the ship give way again, but making it very difficult for the ship to maneuver?
Far from being theoretical questions

Happens when racing too - Port gybe boat running deep has to keep clear of VMG assymetric boats switching from starboard tack to leeward ROW as they zig-zag down the course - bloody annoying!

 

[wonkywinch]

The rib driver, not the race boats. Just let him know you’ve seen and taken note of the race area and will keep clear in your own way.

I was threading my way through a race across the north channel, with no inconvenience to the close reaching competitors despite me being the only boat on a starboard tack, a small gap before another race where they were all on a run, my plan to tack and go behind the last boat before I was rudely interrupted by arrogant rib driver. I should have sailed across to the committee boat and had a word. Unfortunately I couldn't identify the event the rib belonged to but our boat name emblazoned on the stern so best to be polite!

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Am I right in thinking that a non-racing boat can protest a racer? If so, what's the procedure?

A breach of the colregs like that, repeatedly colliding with a moored vessel could be considered under rule 69 I suppose, especially as it belonged to another competitor. Otherwise it’s just an insurance job.

 

[awol]

Am I right in thinking that a non-racing boat can protest a racer? If so, what's the procedure?

No, but they can inform the protest committee who may proceed under 60.3

 

[Leighb]

A breach of the colregs like that, repeatedly colliding with a moored vessel could be considered under rule 69 I suppose, especially as it belonged to another competitor. Otherwise it’s just an insurance job.

Any contact, however minor other than pushing off with a hand, requires immediate retirement under our club's Sailing Instructions. If the offender does not retire another competitor would no doubt protest them and they would be disqualified.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Any contact, however minor other than pushing off with a hand, requires immediate retirement under our club's Sailing Instructions. If the offender does not retire another competitor would no doubt protest them and they would be disqualified.

I might suggest that to our esteemed race management team. We lose the windex off our XOD to heeled folkboats in amongst our moorings regularly.

 

[john_morris_uk]

That may be true for organised events, but I think he may have a point about an urban myth developing at a club level. The only regatta that I have taken part in within my memory span included a rule that any skipper making a protest would be questioned by the race committee while standing in a cold shower.

I’ve taken part in regattas where ‘protests must be submitted on a £20 note’ (other denominations available).