ATIS and RAINWAT - How complicated can things get

[Dann]

Just read the YBW news item http://www.ybw.com/auto/newsdesk/20090317154433pbogeneral.html and the thread about this subject on the Mobo Forum. http://www.ybw.com/forums/showflat.php?Number=2252043. It seems yet another bureaucratic nightmare, destined to catch unwary UK yachtsmen daring to invade European Inland Waters !

 

[SirSnoozalot]

Can't get the second link Dann. But don't worry about it - the first was bad enough.

This is all working towards the SAD GIT. EU Directive 09/1002 which to explain the abbreviation is a combined Customs, Immigration, Anti-Terrorist, VAT, IR, part of the new EBorders thingy.

SAD GIT stands for the Single Administrative Digital General International Transit document, which is like an ID card which contains every peice of information known by any Governmental body about the holder. It will contain your DNA information, Urine sample, passport, driving licence, medical history, sock size, and such things, including details on any sarcastic anti-government posts made on YBW.

 

[aluijten]

It's our revenge on your E-border nightmare /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Actually ATIS is not as bad as it sounds. It automatically sends your call sign after each transmission. It prevents a lot of clowns to use their VHF as free mobile phone.

Arno

 

[Dann]

How many VHF-DSC radios currently sold in UK can be converted to ATIS? I have briefly looked into the blurb on my 1 yr old ICOM M505 and can find no mention of it. The Mobo Forum thread http://www.ybw.com/forums/showflat.php?Number=2252043 makes it appear very confusing regarding which and what can be used when and where; suggesting, if you are going to use European Waterways and UK waters, two VHF sets one ATIS and one DSC will be required !

 

[BurnitBlue]

All the info I have read states the term SHIP. Surely these regulations are not mandatory for all leisure craft irrespective of size.

There are all sorts and sizes of leisure craft on the inland waterways of Europe from dingies and canoes to infatables and punts.

I have not seen a size definition on any of the links given. I can understand rules for large vessels, ships, peniche etc but for small leisure boats???

There are many clubs and moorings scattered through the system catering for racing dingies, two man fishing dingies, rowing eights etc. and I cannot imagine that they even carry VHF of any description let alone AIS.

Can anyone point me to a size description of boats required to carry AIS. I have gone through to the Med from the Baltic with my engineless folkboat a number of time with the help of a 3 hp outboard. I donät have the power to keep a complex VHF set on 24 hours a day for six weeks.

 

[BurnitBlue]

Thanks for the heads up by the way. I may be forced to alter my future sailing plans and I launch in one week. Panic panic, These rules totally escaped my attention here in Sweden. Thanks again.

 

[RAI]

It's worth Googling RAINWAT and downloading the English version of the agreement. It's quite short and readable.

Yes, you need two radios - as dual-watch is not meeting the two simultaneous channels requirement.

You can use a handheld to listen, but the RAINWAT agreement limits it's transmitting frequencies, so not the best solution.

Get your ATIS number for Ofcom, it's usually a 9 infront of your MMSI number, but it needs to be officially issued, as Ofcom got it's MMSI knickers in a twist.

UK people can program their own sets, I'm told, that's not allowed in a lot of the RAINWAT area. Of course, you have to disable it in the UK.

ATIS does cut the cackle, you only have to cross the North Sea from UK to Holland to hear the difference. It stops those kids playing pretend MayDays with the coast guard too.

 

[SirSnoozalot]

Doesn't DCS do that then Richard?

Are we calling for more compulsory regulation here?

 

[RAI]

I don't think a yacht's DSC radio transmits its MMSI unless you hit the Mayday button, or maybe make a specific call to another MMSI number, but correct me if I'm wrong. When someone transmits an "all call" (I don't think that's available on yacht radios) or transmits your specific MMSI or sends a MayDay call, then a DSC radio squawks until you press something. You then receive the calling ship's MMSI. But with normal radio calls the MMSI is not transmitted.

I confess I only just got my DSC radio a year ago, I had to buy a second radio to meet RAINWAT. When just listening to a channel, I can't remember the transmitter's MMSI showing on the screen, except in the cases above.

ATIS is transmitted every time you release the transmit key. Only the official sets can read the ATIS number, as far as I know.

 

[SirSnoozalot]

Aaahh. Thanks. Shame we cant just use the DSC tone. Our business PMR uses selective calling tones on every transmission, as it's the DSC that turns on the receiver (sorta). I can see the difference with Marine, is that we are always open channel, therefore need something else.

 

[BurnitBlue]

I got some answers from various web sites. For what they are worth, I pass them on as an addition to your own search. The Rainwat regs are for boats over 7 metres overall length. My Folkboat is 7.65 metres, with no VHF.

It would appear on some forums that the French are mostly relaxed about insisting on the regs being applied to countries outside Rainwat signitaries. The regs actually came into "law" for non Rainwat flagged boats in February 2009.

The kluge from Ofcom will allegedly not work because most official receivers will not recognise the kluged code and will not be able to reference it from the Belguim Database so until Ofcom come up with a proper fix with consultation with Rainwat their kluge is useless.

The rules are mainly to prevent UK and other radios from transmitting at 25 watts on frequencies that can interfere with inland non-marine sets. It is not clear, whether it is OK to transit the inland waters without a VHF set at all. I mean, how would they know?

Therefore, I will attempt to transit the canal system as usual without a VHF radio. If some jobsworth does make a scene I will say the VHF set got stolen or something. To hell with it. I do not want to go to the Med via Biscay and I certainly do not want to put my boat on a truck.

 

[RAI]

[ QUOTE ]
The kluge from Ofcom will allegedly not work because most official receivers will not recognise the kluged code and will not be able to reference it from the Belguim Database so until Ofcom come up with a proper fix with consultation with Rainwat their kluge is useless.

[/ QUOTE ]Ofcom actually supply the applicants MMSI number to the Belgium BIPT, who then issue the ATIS number back to Ofcom after checking the ITU database. Belgium is maintaining the UK's ATIS database for Ofcom at the moment.

I think you will probably get away with taking a "7 m" boat across France without a radio, even if you are actually supposed to have two. Just be very polite to the local "officers". /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[Seven Spades]

Do the regs say that your radio must be ATIS or do they say if you have a radio it must be AITS?

 

[Aeolus_IV]

Having spoken to Icom I will be getting my 5 year old (approx) M421 radio "upgraded" to support ATIS. It is a software activitiy, something my local dealer can do. Have already been through the Ofcom loop and have an ATIS number allocated (via Belgium authorities). All very painless (so far) and the all the people involved have been very helpful and efficient - the paper work (emails!) took less than a week from start to finish. The way Icom will implement ATIS (and CH31) for me is to create a third "group" (in additional to "Int" and "US") called ATIS so I can turn all the "features" of ATIS on or off as required by changing groups. I have assumed that this means I will not require two radios - nobody has mentioned this requirement to me before. Have I missed something?

Regards,
Jeff.

 

[jerryat]

That's a very good point. We are likely to push off cruising next year, and the canals (done the trip three times now) are being considered as an alternative to our usual 'outside' route.

We have an ancient Huson 60 VHF which is used perhaps once or twice a year and have no intention of replacing it with a DSC type. So if the VNF/French Gov do require this ATIS thingy, we would prefer to remove the radio altogether.

But would we then be 'illegal' on the French (and other European) canals? Anyone actually know?

 

[BurnitBlue]

This subject is very important to me because I am trapped inside the Baltic. The only way out is to go over the top of Skagan and then into the often stormy and dangerous North Sea or take my usual route through the canals. If this VHF ruling was applied strictly then even the Kiel Kanal would be a no go. Therefore I have spent some hours googling around for answers.

It would need a lawyer to interpret Rianwat to answer our question about whether it is legal to NOT have a VHF at all. The English translation of Rainwat SEEMS to state that a boat over 7 metres must be equiped with a VHF set that conforms to Rainwat and ATIS. I HOPE it means that if the boat HAS a VHF set then it must conform to ATIS.

One website I googled stated that the Rainwat rules are mainly for the big rivers like Seine Rhine Danube and Rhone that carry seagoing ships that may carry dangerous cargoes far inland. This makes sense to me and implies that, as usual, pleasure boats are caught in the same web. Except, of course that the 7 metre rule aims directly at pleasure boats.

There is no way that I can legally buy an ATIS or DSC radio in Sweden until I have already passed the license tests which are in technical Swedish. So I may use this latest rule to change my habits and investigate the Biscay route, (assuming I can get out of the Baltic)

 

[BurnitBlue]

Quote.
I think you will probably get away with taking a "7 m" boat across France without a radio, even if you are actually supposed to have two. Just be very polite to the local "officers".
__________________________________________________

Yes I hope so and I may attempt it because the canal route to the Mediterranean from Sweden is a massive short cut. A problem could arise, though, if I got half-way down and got stopped. Yuk and double yuk.

I must admit that the more I think about the canal route the more attractive the Sea route gets these days of "papers please". There was a funny article in a Swedish magazine a while back entitled "The route to the Med. Which is worse, the horrible sea route or the horrible canal route?".

 

[RAI]

[ QUOTE ]
Do the regs say that your radio must be ATIS or do they say if you have a radio it must be AITS?

[/ QUOTE ]My understanding is that two radios are required in the RAINWAT area - because you are required to listen continuously and simultaneously to two channels. Hard to do without radios.

 

[kingfisher]

In the Netherlands ATIS has been mandatory since 2000, I believe. One of the advantages of the system is that they can link your call ID to their database. So when I request a lock through in Hansweert, they automatically get a little rectangle with my dimensions on their graphic lock display that they can puzzle in.

 

[ditchcrawler]

I asked an ICOM dealer today about getting my ICOM 421 adapted for ATIS.He said he could do it but was busy.ICOM will do it for £35.However when you have ATIS you cannot(so he said) have DSC.When you get back from Continent you then have to pay again to have the radio deprogrammed back to have DSC.This does sound nonsense to me.Anyone have any knowledge of this.I will ask ICOM I think.