At last:The real truth about 'performance' saily boats.

rustybarge said:
Downwind on the prevailing trade winds.........



...just like I was saying, a sail boat is useless at sailing to windward.



.....why do sailboats have engines if this is the case?:D
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Why do you think there is any value in stating the obvious? Nothing you say or do is going to change the laws of physics, so why not just accept them and work with them rather than against them.
 
Have you ever tried sailing into a harbour?

A motor boat is useless without fuel. Apples and pears comparrison

People have a right to be stupid but you are pushing the boundary with your ignorance of sailing. I would stick to engines if I were you...
 
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Originally Posted by rustybarge
hmmm, let's see.
66 gals per mile, not as big as a large cruise ship that uses 1/2 ton per mile, Not as small as a 80' twin 1200hp that uses 66 gals hour at 25 kts....................

100 mtr coaster?
What are these numbers? 800 lph = 175 gal 100 miles = 1.75gal per mile this is from 2 x CAT C32 1925HP engines on 85 ton mobo
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Here's what you wrote:
700 euro for 100 miles is cheap, if i open the taps on the mobo I skipper we would be burning circa 3000 litres do do 100 miles. at 1.35 euro per litre you do the sums

..and only 1.75 gals/mn for a 4000 hp 85 tons boat, at 8 kts perhaps? :D
For Gods sake a 80' planing boat (twin 1200 hp) uses 2.5 gals/ mn at cruise!!!
 
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Lozzer said:
Have you ever tried sailing into a harbour?

A motor boat is useless without fuel. Apples and pears comparrison

People have a right to be stupid but you are pushing the boundary with your ignorance of sailing. I would stick to engines if I were you...
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m'lud, please examine the evidence from your own saily forum, on the thread I quoted originally:

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Sailing to windward is a mugs games unless you absolutely have to. Either stay put until the wind changes or choose somewhere else to go. It's a lesson we learnt trying to beat into the wind up the Staits to Gib: all we did on the two attempts we made was to tear the genoa and get grumpy with one another. Better by far to wait it out.
http://www.djbyrne.wordpress.com
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....a sailboat is useless without fuel :D
 
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At 8 knots we are just out of tickover......

The post you are quoting is one persons opinion. The area they are sailing in is one I know very well as thats where I live. With 2 knots of wind then an additional 2 knots of tide I can fully understand what the person said.

Share with us you credentials, what do you know about sailing and mobos... Or are you an armchair captain. Everything is easier in the comfort of your lounge with the fire burning nicely.
 
Lozzer said:
At 8 knots we are just out of tickover......

The post you are quoting is one persons opinion. The area they are sailing in is one I know very well as thats where I live. With 2 knots of wind then an additional 2 knots of tide I can fully understand what the person said.

Share with us you credentials, what do you know about sailing and mobos... Or are you an armchair captain. Everything is easier in the comfort of your lounge with the fire burning nicely.
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Please don't pay attention to anything I've said, I'm just a stupid thicko; as many people have pointed out on numerous occasions.......!

1.75 gal/nm with 4000 hp, hmmm interesting!
 
I can see why you chose a 2HP Trolling engine for this thread.

I'd have thought that even you would realise that the only way a wind powered boat can make progress dead to windward is by using a windmill driving a propeller. Everyone knows that sloops tack at around 45deg to the wind so have to travel much further than the dead to wind distance made good.

However, just as the wind is seldom dead astern, so it is seldom dead ahead & one tack will be more favourable than the other, in addition the wind fluctuates & such shifts can be taken advantage of. Use of the wind & tide is completely free, unlike fuel, it is true that the sails & rig might cost as much as a small engine, but their "fuel" is clearly free. You can sail a boat anywhere without an engine, but you may need to wait for favourable conditions as sailing boats have always done. An auxiliary engine in a sail boat simply means that you don't need to wait for the right conditions.

I do a fair bit of motoring - my grand daughter doesn't like the lean when we sail and sometimes the family want to go upwind when I would generally choose to sail the other way. Nevertheless, I use about 50 quid's worth of fuel (about a tank full) over a full season.

Sailing requires passage planning to take account of tides, wind (& especially around Anglesey, tidal gates) that, and getting the best out of setting your sails & steering a good course are part of the fun & challenge of sailing a boat. You have evidently never experienced that & clearly don't understand it. Stick to your brute power & ignorance if it suits you, but it is pointless telling me that you don't "get" sailing because I do, & I enjoy it - and I pity you more than you pity me.

My great advantage is that I can sail when the conditions are favourable but I can also become a Mobo if I want to travel more directly, or don't want to wait for better conditions. You can only ever be a Mobo, altho you could carry a small sailing dinghy as a tender if you really wanted to see if you could ever "get" it.

Sailing dinks are even greater fun than big yachts, they throw you in the water when you get it wrong so you have to learn quickly.
 
rustybarge said:
Please don't pay attention to anything I've said, I'm just a stupid thicko; as many people have pointed out on numerous occasions.......!

1.75 gal/nm with 4000 hp, hmmm interesting!
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You are very funny.

You know what, I don't mind if you question my comment on fuel consumption but my information is real. In the last two years I have travelled in excess of 12,000 nm on a Princess 85, I know every fuel stop I have made, the price I paid, the litres that were taken, the engine hours on fill and the logged mileage. From this data I make my calculations.

Typically we cruise at round 1000rpm which means fuel burn of approx 45-50lph...

I also know that when I go WOT I burn 800 litres per hour and achieve around 25-28 knots depending on load of boat.

Take it or leave it, I know what I am talking about, you I am not so sure.
 
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rustybarge said:
I read somewhere that a lot of sailboats log more than 50% of their time motoring; Ie: they are really motor sailors, not Raggies.
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I'm surprised its as low as that. In my experience, the vast majority of saily boats are motoring at any one time and they only put their sails up when a motorboat approaches. This allows them to annoy the skipper of the motorboat by carrying out unpredictable tacking manouvres in front of it whilst making offensive hand gestures. After the motorboat has gone, they normally continue on their way under motor muttering about wake
 
Deleted User said:
I'm surprised its as low as that. In my experience, the vast majority of saily boats are motoring at any one time and they only put their sails up when a motorboat approaches. This allows them to annoy the skipper of the motorboat by carrying out unpredictable tacking manouvres in front of it whilst making offensive hand gestures. After the motorboat has gone, they normally continue on their way under motor muttering about wake
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;););)
 
Deleted User said:
I'm surprised its as low as that. In my experience, the vast majority of saily boats are motoring at any one time and they only put their sails up when a motorboat approaches. This allows them to annoy the skipper of the motorboat by carrying out unpredictable tacking manouvres in front of it whilst making offensive hand gestures. After the motorboat has gone, they normally continue on their way under motor muttering about wake
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Now that's a good idea! I must try that next time I go out.
 
rustybarge said:
As a mobo owner I had no comprehension of the dynamics of a sailing boat, I always presumed that a yacht could make as good progress upwind as it did downwind ( obviously not as fast!), so in a moment of 'enlightenment' when I read the thread about sailing upwind I suddenly realised that sailing Boats CANNOT make good progress into the wind at all; hence they are all equipped with motors/ saildrives.

In conclusion:
Ques: what don't they tell you about sailboats ?
Ans: they can't sail into the wind! You're going to need an engine.

Same Q for mobo's:
Ques: what don't they tell you about mobo's?
Ans: A 40' planing mobo will probably only manage 1 mpg, or €700 in diesel for every 100 nm!
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Thank you so much for starting this thread, such a good laugh! My first sail boat had no engine, but I made it up and down the river (milford haven to lawrenny) for a couple of seasons befor getting a bigger one, 26ft long, with a semi-working outboard. This one I sailed to the Iles Baleares. I never sailed into the wind, just 45 degrees off some of the time. Have a nice day!
 
mikeinkwazi said:
Thank you so much for starting this thread, such a good laugh! My first sail boat had no engine, but I made it up and down the river (milford haven to lawrenny) for a couple of seasons befor getting a bigger one, 26ft long, with a semi-working outboard. This one I sailed to the Iles Baleares. I never sailed into the wind, just 45 degrees off some of the time. Have a nice day!
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it 's confession time: I used to own a mirror dingy, and then a Cowes punt with gaff rigg; many many many years ago.

That was before I got some sense and ditched the dinghy, and the horse ; got A Mini 850 for £35, and a Dory with 20hp 2str Johnson OB.......

....and the rest was history as they say.

Tacking through 90 deg is a very honest appraisal of a typical sailboat if you take leeway in account, if you want my opinion.
 
rustybarge said:
...but say in a 20 kts headwind how fast could a close hauled 12 mtr yacht go?
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Easy to work out, you just get polar diagrams then do the maths.

Farr 40 - quite racy. In 20 knots of wind

At 52 deg to true wind she should do 8.27 knots which gives a component of 5.09 knots directly into the wind.
 
Many years ago, a sports-car owning friend of mine was making fun of the speed of the ancient Landrover that I was driving at that time. I challenged him to a race - on the condition that I chose the course - which would have been across a local ploughed field - he declined. It's pretty much the same with raggies vs. mobos - let's see you beat any raggie round here on a course to New York...
 
Sailing for the sake of sailing its what its all about

rustybarge said:
As a mobo owner I never realised that it wasn't possible to sail at a useful speed to windward in a sailboat.
Please excuse my ignorance, but say in a 20 kts headwind how fast could a close hauled 12 mtr yacht go?
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The conditions you describe are similar those we had on Saturday off Kas, (18 - 22 knts NW) my boat is slightly longer but by no means a racing boat. With full mainsail and 100% genoa (full genny is 150%) we sailed upwind towards Kalkan (windward) at about 10% heel at an average speed of around 6.7 Knots over ground (according to our GPS) (7.7 kts max) there is no tide out here to worry about to add on or subtract. In that configuration in a flat sea we make about 40 deg to windward (the sea was flat - .5 mtr waves max); AND we did get to Kalkan turned round and ran down the wind back to base.

In short it was a great day sailing for the sake of sailing - brilliant!

Edit: just done the math - so we make about 5 Kts towards our destination
 
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