At last:The real truth about 'performance' saily boats.

[rustybarge]

Many years ago, a sports-car owning friend of mine was making fun of the speed of the ancient Landrover that I was driving at that time. I challenged him to a race - on the condition that I chose the course - which would have been across a local ploughed field - he declined. It's pretty much the same with raggies vs. mobos - let's see you beat any raggie round here on a course to New York...

Using the 50' Diesel Duck as a example ( photo earlier in the post) it carries 1600 gals of fuel as standard and has a design cruise speed of 8 kts / 2mpg/ range of 3400nm.

*****************************************
DIMENSIONS
LOD: 49 feet
LWL: 46.76 feet
Beam: 14.9 feet
Draft(dry): 5'
Displacement 68,000 pounds dry

ENGINES
Engine(s): IVECO
Engine Model: NEF 150
Engine HP: 123, commercial rating
Cruising Speed: 7-8
Max Speed: 9+

TANKAGE
Fuel: 1600
Water: 250
***************************************



...at 5 kts this increases to approx. 5mpg giving a range of 8000 nm give or take.....

http://seahorseyachts.com/core/list...ts=1175275&hosturl=seahorsemarine&slim=broker


UK to NY you are going to have to route via the Azores/ Canary Islands, then the West Indies, then up the East coast of the US.......PHEW!

The mobo will be going direct Uk to NY..............see you there.

Here's a slightly different version of the same type of hull.
View attachment 42836

With sails up just to keep you happy......

View attachment 42837

 

[rustybarge]

The conditions you describe are similar those we had on Saturday off Kas, (18 - 22 knts NW) my boat is slightly longer but by no means a racing boat. With full mainsail and 100% genoa (full genny is 150%) we sailed upwind towards Kalkan (windward) at about 10% heel at an average speed of around 6.7 Knots over ground (according to our GPS) (7.7 kts max) there is no tide out here to worry about to add on or subtract. In that configuration in a flat sea we make about 40 deg to windward (the sea was flat - .5 mtr waves max); AND we did get to Kalkan turned round and ran down the wind back to base.

In short it was a great day sailing for the sake of sailing - brilliant!

Edit: just done the math - so we make about 5 Kts towards our destination

see the post above....a good displ. Mobo will easily manage 5kts direct VMG To the destination with long range tanks; and if you have 'only 3000 nm' to go can manage about 7-8 kts!!!!

...you pays your money and..........

 

[prv]

see the post above....a good displ. Mobo will easily manage 5kts direct VMG To the destination

Indeed, which is why all commercial users - for whom the boat is simply a means of getting from A to B - are under power. However, if your goal is instead to go sailing, then it's kind of important to have some sails.

Pete

 

[rustybarge]

Indeed, which is why all commercial users - for whom the boat is simply a means of getting from A to B - are under power. However, if your goal is instead to go sailing, then it's kind of important to have some sails.

Pete

I was arguing that most Raggies would be better with a big trawler displ mobo, with 'sail assist' for downwind and on beam reach. why buy a performance sailing yacht that can't go to windward very fast, living in a narrow cave that heels over at 25* when underway! the bow pitching up and down like a roller coaster....

A big trawler yacht like the diesel duck will have twice the internal volume, doesn't heel over, doesn't pitch, will sail downwind and on a beam reach, can go direct to destination ........

 

[Marsupial]

see the post above....a good displ. Mobo will easily manage 5kts direct VMG To the destination with long range tanks; and if you have 'only 3000 nm' to go can manage about 7-8 kts!!!!

...you pays your money and..........

The down wind leg of our sail was achieved at an average speed of 8.2 knts, so that's VMG 8.2, the whole trip in silence except for the ripple of the water, MAGIC! only saw one other boat, a 30 - 40ft fly bridge cruiser running at displacement speed - we over took it. (don't blame the skipper, fuel out here is £1.40 a litre)

but each to his own, don't recognise the slow racing boat description above, all the racing boats I know will sail round me all day every day! so 2 kts VMG to windward is a very pessimistic estimate, perhaps they left the sails at home!

 

[Keen_Ed]

see the post above....a good displ. Mobo will easily manage 5kts direct VMG To the destination

But it's not sailing.

 

[Keen_Ed]

I was arguing that most Raggies would be better with a big trawler displ mobo, with 'sail assist' for downwind and on beam reach. why buy a performance sailing yacht that can't go to windward very fast, living in a narrow cave that heels over at 25* when underway! the bow pitching up and down like a roller coaster....

A big trawler yacht like the diesel duck will have twice the internal volume, doesn't heel over, doesn't pitch, will sail downwind and on a beam reach, can go direct to destination ........

Because the boat's you're suggesting would sail like a brick. I go sailing to go sailing.

If I want to get somewhere, I drive/fly.

 

[Marsupial]

doesn't pitch

So why do they fit stabilisers? to stop roll, nothing can prevent pitching, if you can find the solution to pitching tell the worlds hull designers you will be a billionaire overnight.

anyway the thread is fatally flawed, yachting is about the journey, motor boating is about the destination. To achieve that our boats are slower so they have to be more seaworthy (generally) we cant speed up to avoid the weather we have to be able to weather it. Conversely (generally) mobos are noisy and lighter built so they can get on the plane, and I am not sure I would prefer a mobo straight into a 2mtr swell, the odd few I have been on in a seaway have been very uncomfortable, water everywhere and banging and crashing, AND the skipper ended up on a course 45 deg to the waves similar to that of a yacht to windward! (70ft steel displacement gentleman's cruising yacht built by Vickers in 1966 with twin screws and stabilisers - very comfortable at anchor!)

 

[rustybarge]

So why do they fit stabilisers? to stop roll, nothing can prevent pitching, if you can find the solution to pitching tell the worlds hull designers you will be a billionaire overnight.

anyway the thread is fatally flawed, yachting is about the journey, motor boating is about the destination. To achieve that our boats are slower so they have to be more seaworthy (generally) we cant speed up to avoid the weather we have to be able to weather it. Conversely (generally) mobos are noisy and lighter built so they can get on the plane, and I am not sure I would prefer a mobo straight into a 2mtr swell, the odd few I have been on in a seaway have been very uncomfortable, water everywhere and banging and crashing, AND the skipper ended up on a course 45 deg to the waves similar to that of a yacht to windward! (70ft steel displacement gentleman's cruising yacht built by Vickers in 1966 with twin screws and stabilisers - very comfortable at anchor!)

Sailboats are designed to 'pitch upwards' to maintain speed over the top of a wave, that is their specific design criteria to avoid the wave from stopping them dead in the water.

...mobo's have continuous drive available from the engine, and can 'plough' through the waves resulting in a much smoother ride, obviously only at displ. Speeds.

Of course a mobo is going to roll more without the lump of iron hanging below the hull.

 

[westernman]

Sailboats are designed to 'pitch upwards' to maintain speed over the top of a wave, that is their specific design criteria to avoid the wave from stopping them dead in the water.

...mobo's have continuous drive available from the engine, and can 'plough' through the waves resulting in a much smoother ride, obviously only at displ. Speeds.

Of course a mobo is going to roll more without the lump of iron hanging below the hull.

Not if they are towing decent sized fish/paravanes.

 

[rustybarge]

Not if they are towing decent sized fish/paravanes.

They seem to be very popular in the states, but I've never been on a boat with them.

do you have any experiences of their usefulness in a beam sea?

 

[westernman]

They seem to be very popular in the states, but I've never been on a boat with them.

do you have any experiences of their usefulness in a beam sea?

I don't.

But I do see the fishing boats towing them in rough weather down here (when generally we are the only pleasure boat out at all).

 

[rustybarge]

I don't.

But I do see the fishing boats towing them in rough weather down here (when generally we are the only pleasure boat out at all).

It seems to be a economical solution to the roll problem; stabilisers cost outrageous amounts of cash, it think about £70k for a modern setup!!!!

The diesel duck can use the 'assist' sails to damp down the roll; does this sound like it would work, presumably in a beam sea the wind will come from the beam too, and a bit of heel would help to dampen the roll?

 

[Resolution]

I suspect there is a certain amount of troll-take by the OP in this thread, but on a rainy day it has stirred me to read up a bit on passage maker trawlers. Those of us who know the Hamble well will have seen Nordhavns of course, and often wondered what they are like at sea.
Slow. To be passage seaworthy they have to be heavy displacement, so max speed is limited to 1.4 x square root of waterline length. So to achieve the 8 knots max boatspeed that almost any yacht can achieve you need about 40 feet LWL, say 50 feet LOA.
Very slow. Unless you own an oil well, running a big diesel at near max power is horrendously bad for fuel consumption, which is why most passage makers seem to settle for something in the one third power, half speed range. Say 4 knots?

The motion. Round hulled boats all Roll like a pig unless fitted with stabilizers. Modern hydraulic stabilisers apparently make a big difference, but have a record of still going wrong just when needed most.

Remote from the sea. Good news bad news here. Because the big engine and fuel tanks mean one can have power at all times, passage makers seem to shut the doors and run the air on or heating full time, as well as the water maker, lights, etc etc . So less interaction with the naturistic side of wind and waves, more like taking your living room across the ocean.
On a stinking wet and cold day I can see some advantage here, but one would miss the good bits as well.

Expensive. The smallest second hand Nordhavn seems to come in at £500,000, whilst new ones start around £2 million on the water. I could not see any prices on the Chinese made equivalents that the OP was suggesting, maybe he will come along and let us know.

Interesting as a way of life if you want to travel the world by sea, at your own pace, and can afford the fuel bills.
But I suggest there are many sailing yachts that can achieve the same passage speeds, in similar comfort, and have the joy in nice weather of sailing faster and for a zero fuel cost.

PS if I were younger I would also mention the Green advantages of sailing vs the carbon cost of motoring. But I am not, so I won't!

 

[Lozzer]

You know rusty is just posting to get reactions. I doubt he has any real knowledge that has any value. Certainly I haven't read anything from that has any valuable content.

The Motor sailer he puts forward is possibly one of the worst examples I have ever seen. I would imagine under sail on a beam reach in say 20 knots it will be going faster sideways than forward.

I am fortunate in that I skipper a motor yacht and a small sailing yacht. The MY has stabilized and as mentioned by others it's like being in your lounge.. We have sky TV, aircon, more fridges than I have in my house and if you fancy you can hop into the jacuzzi.

However, ploughing into a 2m head sea I would much rather be on the 40' sailing boat as the ride is far more comfortable. Ok we won't make the same progress but it's half the size.

For me being at one with nature battling the elements is a much nicer challenge than working out where your next fuel stop is.

Horses for courses.

 

[Resolution]

Lozzer
Good comment. Enjoy!

 

[rustybarge]

Lozzer
Good comment. Enjoy!

Thanks to everyone for all the input, I've learnt something new about sailing that I didn't know about before.

I will let this 'cut and paste ' from the Saily forum sum up..............

.
Originally Posted by gordmac
As a motorboater with no sailing knowledge I have found this interesting, there seems to be a fair bit of thinking involved in making progress (if 2-3 knots can be called progress!) sailing. Not sure if that is a good thing though! Also answers why there is a large number of sailing boats actually being motor boats when you see them.

[ArthurJStoatfondler;4771632] It is interesting, isn't it? It's all about time. Modern white, grp, sailing boats always seem to be sailing to windward - the old adage being that the wind always seems to coming from the direction you want to sail to. If you're racing then you have to go where you have to go, and that includes sailing upwind as quickly as possible. Cruising yachts don't have to sail that way if they don't want to but, usually because they decided their route days or even weeks before, they still seem intent on clawing their way upwind to stick to their plan, which is why you see so many of them motor sailing. It rather defeats the object of having a sailing boat.
In bygone days owners who were cruising would go wherever the wind took them with the wind on the beam or astern and, if the wind changed, they changed their plans accordingly. I've owned many boats over the years including Hillyards; beautifully built heavy wooden long keel sailing yachts. David Hillyard, the builder of Hillyard yachts, was asked once why his boats are so useless at sailing upwind, which they are, pointing perhaps 45 degrees away from the wind, if you're lucky. He famously replied that he didn't design his boats to point well upwind because gentlemen never sail upwind.
It's all about time, as I said. People don't seem to have time to go with the wind any more.

 

[Lozzer]

Thanks to everyone for all the input, I've learnt something new about sailing that I didn't know about before.

I will let this 'cut and paste ' from the Saily forum sum up..............

Exactly what have you summed up?

95% of sailing yachts have engines, if people are on a deadline they will use this to achieve their goal. On the boat I skipper we have two massive engines but we only use the full potential when we want to or have to. Does that make it inferior?

There is also reference to a Hillyard yacht, hardly cutting edge technology have you ever seen one or been on one?

My recommendation to people considering sailing, you will get more enjoyment from it if you are not tied to a schedule. If the wind is from the North go East or West. Don't fight it harness it.

 

[rustybarge]

Exactly what have you summed up?

95% of sailing yachts have engines, if people are on a deadline they will use this to achieve their goal. On the boat I skipper we have two massive engines but we only use the full potential when we want to or have to. Does that make it inferior?

There is also reference to a Hillyard yacht, hardly cutting edge technology have you ever seen one or been on one?

My recommendation to people considering sailing, you will get more enjoyment from it if you are not tied to a schedule. If the wind is from the North go East or West. Don't fight it harness it.

Exactly!
If you have a sailboat, don't bother sailing upwind, it's so slow you'll go crazy.

...or better still get a mobo

 

[Lozzer]

Exactly!
If you have a sailboat, don't bother sailing upwind, it's so slow you'll go crazy.

...or better still get a mobo

You still don't get it so this WILL be my final post on the matter.

If you go sailing don't be in a hurry and enjoy turning natures power into forward momentum. The wind is free and really rather peaceful. You should hear 2 x Caterpillar C32's at full chat.

If you like to sail don't buy a motor sailer as they are neither Arthur or Martha. Ie they don't sail and they don't motor that well. Especially the model you pictured.

If you want to spend all your time heading into wind then buy a motorboat as you don't have the brain power to skipper a sailing boat.

At the end of the day however, just be happy with your boating whatever form it might take.

Now time to finalize summer cruise itinerary.

Out.