Associated Costs of Ownership relative to Boat Length?

[Kwik Decision]

I really think I'm going to go for the midway point between 26-32 and probably look for something like a Vic 28, or most likely, a Sadler 29, which seems to give pretty good accommodations for a yacht of her abilities/age/cost.

I owned a Sadler 29 for 9 yrs, and therefore am rather biased towards them, however, in terms of interior space, they are small compared with say the 29' Westerly Konsort. This is partly down to the double skin with closed cell foam insulation construction, which keeps them warm, and more importantly keeps condensation under control compared to most other boats.

The length of the Sadler 29 is also an interesting and flexible concept. According to the builder, they are 28'5" over the deck, but the transom hung rudder, and the pulpit sticking out forward make them over 30' long as far as marinas who can be bothered to get a tape measure out are concerned.

 

[dk]

Hi all -

Sorry to clarify - boat would also be lived on, not just parked in Marina. Here in Liverpool, I am not aware of any swing moorings anyway. I think it's the Marina or somewhere else that isn't Liverpool.

I really think I'm going to go for the midway point between 26-32 and probably look for something like a Vic 28, or most likely, a Sadler 29, which seems to give pretty good accommodations for a yacht of her abilities/age/cost.

Thanks for the advice - I never really considered that that most of the equipment costs the same whatever the size of the yacht.

I found it very comfortable living aboard a Jaguar 27, but not in a Hurley 22. That extra 5ft made a huge difference in comfort, in a marina, at anchor and under sail. There are hundreds of basically sound 27-29 footers available for around £5-10K in the UK. Many have well-worn sails and engines, but some have been well cared for and there are frequent bargains to be had. Just saw a well-loved and very tidy Albin Vega recently going for £3,500. It helps, of course, if you're able to carry out much of the maintenance yourself.

 

[Bobc]

You are over thinking this.

Look at at least twenty boats. Pick out the two or three in the best condition and which show evidence of having been continually cared for, kept clean, and so on. What is the engine like, when was the rig renewed, and so on but above all is the gear the best that money can buy or cheaper equivalents? Picking a boat with really good gear in nice condition will save you far more than any small difference in length.

He's right you know.

 

[Blue Sunray]

You are over thinking this.

Look at at least twenty boats. Pick out the two or three in the best condition and which show evidence of having been continually cared for, kept clean, and so on. What is the engine like, when was the rig renewed, and so on but above all is the gear the best that money can buy or cheaper equivalents? Picking a boat with really good gear in nice condition will save you far more than any small difference in length.

That sound like an excellent approach.

 

[jwilson]

Just taking Sadlers as an example, a 32 might well be 23% larger than a 26 but the interior volume is maybe double, so comfort benefits. Costs of sails, rigging etc. are however much more than 23% above that of a 26. You pays your money and you takes your choice.

The first biggest economy is not using a marina berth. Also, you talk about labour - if you are sailing on a budget then boatyard labour rates are the thing you avoid at all costs. There's not much on a typical small cruiser that can't be DIY apart from sails and rigging.

 

[Seven Spades]

Just taking Sadlers as an example, a 32 might well be 23% larger than a 26 but the interior volume is maybe double, so comfort benefits. Costs of sails, rigging etc. are however much more than 23% above that of a 26. You pays your money and you takes your choice.

The first biggest economy is not using a marina berth. Also, you talk about labour - if you are sailing on a budget then boatyard labour rates are the thing you avoid at all costs. There's not much on a typical small cruiser that can't be DIY apart from sails and rigging.

32^3/26^2= 1.86 so costs are up to 86% more. Not all costs are related to volume anti fouling is probably 32^2/26^2 so 1.51 so you will cover 51%more area. The mooring fees might be the same depending where you keep it.

 

[pagoda]

32^3/26^2= 1.86 so costs are up to 86% more. Not all costs are related to volume anti fouling is probably 32^2/26^2 so 1.51 so you will cover 51%more area. The mooring fees might be the same depending where you keep it.

While curious to hear opinion on the possible multiples of cost with size of boat, you have to bear in mind that unless you are really breaking the bank to go sailing, emotion and the experience gained has a lot to do with what you sail.
Also, unless forumites know otherwise, we only have one shot at time on earth. Getting to the point in life where "I wish we'd done X while we could" matters is also relevant. If you find the boat you want and can make allowances in other outgoings then why not? You might actually generate a smile in your life in the process?
There are no pockets in shrouds... and no moorings either?

 

[stranded]

While curious to hear opinion on the possible multiples of cost with size of boat, you have to bear in mind that unless you are really breaking the bank to go sailing, emotion and the experience gained has a lot to do with what you sail.
Also, unless forumites know otherwise, we only have one shot at time on earth. Getting to the point in life where "I wish we'd done X while we could" matters is also relevant. If you find the boat you want and can make allowances in other outgoings then why not? You might actually generate a smile in your life in the process?
There are no pockets in shrouds... and no moorings either?

+ many. And the cube thing is mostly a nonsense extrapolation from volume. Some things are much more, though rarely cubed, some a bit more, many the same. But if it’s your labour, the ‘cost’ is your time which, if you enjoy it, is no cost at all.

 

[James_Calvert]

Check out your intended marina's policy on measuring chargeable overall length. And take a tape with you when viewing boats. Just to avoid expensive surprises.

 

[Daydream believer]

Check out your intended marina's policy on measuring chargeable overall length. And take a tape with you when viewing boats. Just to avoid expensive surprises.

Good point there. I have to pay for 31ft 6 ins on a 31 ft boat because the the bow roller sticks out an extra 5 inches. So marina charge up to the next half of a foot. We spent some time arguing with the tape.(They wanted to charge 32 ft). At least we compromised over the fact that I had a self steering in the stern, because it was lift up pattern & I said that I would just lift it up every time (which I do)

 

[dom]

Sail area roughly scales as length squared and displacement as length cubed

So, I'd say the square and cube rule approximations provide a reasonable first pass. This suggests doubling the length will increase cost 8x, which give or take sounds about right to me. Of course there are discrete jumps but bigger more powerful boats are generally commensurately more complex.

All subject to Kukr's advice to open the game with a well maintained boat.

 

[blackbeard]

It's not just money, it's time as well. And time spent on boat maintenance always exceeds expectations. And it's often little things, such as electronics. If it's on a boat it can go wrong. And this is affected by the number of toys you have, as in navigation aids, number of loos (!), hot and cold pressurised water systems, bow thrusters … list is endless.

 

[doug748]

.....

I know at sea that a 32 obviously has a lot of benefits over a 26, speed, stowage, etc but 40% is quite a price to pay. A thousand quid isn't much to some, but to me it's a three week cycling holiday somewhere warm etc.

My question being, would that 40% be pretty representative of not only long-term mooring, but night rates, maintenance, labour, lift outs, and replacement parts; sails, rigging, etc?

Cheers!

I'm not 'avvin anything like 40% but I have already mentioned that.

On a slightly different tack here is a team who have taken off cruising and, after a shaky start, are now doing rather well, in both sailing and video terms:

Running costs of c4.5 k for their year on a 28ft boat costing £5,500.

 

[Skylark]

You are over thinking this.

Good advice! Don't get hung-up looking for a specific boat. It's one of the best ways to spend more than you had planned and/or can afford.

I don't know it well but I do know that you are very restricted in Liverpool. It's more than 15 miles from lock to open water and a long way from there to anywhere else. Leaving on the ebb, there's no turning back. I imagine that sailing the river an hour either side of HW wears thin very quickly, especially as a liveaboarder.

The proximity to the city attractions is, on the other hand, very appealing. Look at a lot of boats and get the biggest and best maintained that you can afford. I'd put creature comforts at the top of my list. Bigger boats are always more comfortable (for living) than smaller.

 

[Dutch01527]

Probably length in meters squared times 70 is close for a sterling figure.
This will also be close to 10 percent of value, if you are running a good boat in good condition.

That seems very high for someone sailing on a budget. £7000 per year for a 10m boat. Probably ok if mooring at a first class marina on the Solent but at least 4 times as much as is necessary. I estimate my minimum spend on my 8.6m boat, on a yacht club pontoon in Cardiff, at about £1500 including mooring, club membership, insurance, engine servicing, haul out, anti foul paint and £300 for maintenance parts. My actual spend is somewhat higher because of upgrades I want but do not really need and employing people to do jobs I do not enjoy but still only about £2000.

 

[rwoofer]

£1500 for all that is extrodinarily cheap!

 

[Dutch01527]

£1500 for all that is extrodinarily cheap!

8.6 metre Dehler. Pontoon mooring and Cardiff Yacht Club membership £700. Insurance £250. Engine servicing parts (own labour) £100. Haul out at club £80. Anti foul paint(own labour) £50 and £300 for maintenance parts. Pontoon is stern/bow to and does not have shore power but it works for me.

There was a one off up front payment of £2200 to “rent “ the pontoon for as many years as you are a member which is returnable in full when you leave the club which I had forgotten. If you took a fore and aft mooring 100 yards from the the pontoon that would not be payable.

I did not choose it because it was cheap, it is the closest to my home and walking distance from the bright lights of Cardiff Bay and we use the boat year around as a bit of a floating holiday cottage. I have actually spent a fair bit more on sails, canvas, boomstrut, lines, topside paint ect but none of that was essential.

 

[Stemar]

That's great if you can or want to be in Cardiff, but the OP needs to be in Liverpool, which apparently limits his choices to one place.

 

[Dutch01527]

That's great if you can or want to be in Cardiff, but the OP needs to be in Liverpool, which apparently limits his choices to one place.

I was replying to a general point about the cost of boat ownership, not one specific to a particular area. The North West is not a generally a high price area and there will be similarly priced choices to Cardiff I would guess but not if a top class commercial marina is chosen in the City Centre. OP probably needs to decide if they want to sail frugally or if they want the comfort and convenience of a top level marina. The two are mutually exclusive.