Asking Price vs. Cost of Work

[Jimboss1985]

Hi, looking at buying a 35yo Westerly. The boat has been a bit unloved in recent years. Drooping headlining is now falling off it lots of places. Some of the portlights are very corroded and leaking. There is water damage to deck inside and a least one rotting panel. Genoa needs replacing. Hull, skin fittings, engine all sound. Standing and running rigging probably need replacing. I estimate around £7K of work to bring it up to the standard of sister ships currently advertised for sale however the asking price is close to these other boats in great condition. My question is, is it reasonable to offer the asking less the £7K I think it will take to do the work, noting I will probably need to come up a bit? This offer may upset the seller. Now obviously some might say why not just buy one of the boats in better condition and not have to worry about the work? There will come a tipping point where that might need to be the case but there are other factors at play here e.g. location, berth availability etc. Grateful for thoughts.

 

[lustyd]

Make an offer that you think is reasonable, the worst that can happen is they say no

 

[Poignard]

I wouldn't worry about upsetting the seller with your offer.

If he gets higher offers, he can just ignore yours.

If he doesn't get any at all, he's asking too much.

 

[Moonbeam]

I estimate around £7K of work to bring it up to the standard of sister ships currently advertised for sale however the asking price is close to these other boats in great condition.

I'd go off and buy one of the sister ships that are in 'great condition'. Some sellers are using the hot market to try and offload 'project' boats at silly prices to the less seasoned boat buyer. Unless you love lots of boat work verses actually using it and having fun, I'd give it the swerve.

 

[Stingo]

Hi, looking at buying a 35yo Westerly. The boat has been a bit unloved in recent years. Drooping headlining is now falling off it lots of places. Some of the portlights are very corroded and leaking. There is water damage to deck inside and a least one rotting panel. Genoa needs replacing. Hull, skin fittings, engine all sound. Standing and running rigging probably need replacing. I estimate around £7K of work to bring it up to the standard of sister ships currently advertised for sale however the asking price is close to these other boats in great condition. My question is, is it reasonable to offer the asking less the £7K I think it will take to do the work, noting I will probably need to come up a bit? This offer may upset the seller. Now obviously some might say why not just buy one of the boats in better condition and not have to worry about the work? There will come a tipping point where that might need to be the case but there are other factors at play here e.g. location, berth availability etc. Grateful for thoughts.

Add another £2k to your estimate... it is a hole in the water, after all

 

[Wansworth]

I have a friend who offered 8,000 for a westerly fulmarneeded headlining etc,bought without problem…….sometimes the owner is just tired and wants rid

 

[mrming]

The “hot” market for project boats is over imo.

There are 3 scenarios here as far as I see it:

1) You know what you are looking at in terms of the scope of work, and know trustworthy people who can do the work for a predictable amount of money. Add 1/3 contingency and if you can get the boat for a price that works, great, crack on.

2) You like the idea of a project boat and can take your time to get it up to scratch, probably trading some sailing time and using a mix of your own and others’ labour.

3) You hold out for a similar boat in better condition. It will cost more, but you’ll be starting from a better base and can probably get out sailing straight away. There is always more money to spend after all.

I recently went through a similar situation, with a budget of £25k for a family cruiser to replace our small racy boat.

I bought a 34 year old Westerly Fulmar which was overall very solid but had a few main issues: the decks were very untidy with treadmaster worn and lifting and the teak rubbing strake split and missing many plugs. The engine, despite being a replacement Beta, was in poor condition cosmetically and the owner had fallen behind on major service items. Most of the through hulls needed replacing. Crucially the interior had a lot of restoration done and was in good nick, including the dreaded headlining. The electronics and sails were also very new.

Concerto of these forums kindly helped me appraise the various Fulmars that were for sale at the time, and we decided this one was the most promising.

I got the boat for about 50-60% of the market value of a “good condition” example at the time. I had the essentials done in the yard next to where I bought it and then sailed it home. We could now sail the boat.

I found someone local to refinish the decks for a very sensible fee. I had a mechanic address the major outstanding service issues with the engine, having sourced the parts myself. I also replaced the running rigging myself.

So far I have spent about £21.5k of my original £25k budget. I intend to spend the last chunk having the engine pulled, all remaining auxiliaries checked / replaced where necessary and getting the whole thing cleaned and repainted so it’s easier to inspect in the future.

By the time that is done I’ll have spent 100% of my original budget and will putting in my own maintenance money going forward.

I’ve got to know the boat and it’s systems well and have sailed a couple of thousand miles with my family in the process.

I’ve previously refurbed a project boat using my own labour. Now however, I have a full time job and a young family, so time is at a premium, hence paying others to do the larger jobs. Hope this helps!

 

[Caer Urfa]

All boats need something doing but agree with others make an offer based on what needs doing (at least £8k from what you say) as at least you have had a good look at what needs doing as there's always another boat and NEVER buy a boat because of its location and buy 'Subject to Survey' as look at what you have found so a good surveyor will probably find more.

It also depends on who suggested the asking price as there are some good Yacht brokers and poor ones or someone who just thinks he knows the prices, as a surveyor I see many a story behind most boats for sale (bereavement, retiring, age, upgrading etc) so its your money and like most thongs in life 'You gets what you pay for'

Good luck

 

[srm]

Sellers almost invariably have an inflated idea of their boat's value - having been both a buyer and a seller of a few boats. The value is what a willing buyer and seller agree on.

I would suggest a written low offer, subject to survey, justified by your list of work and replacements required. Further negotiation downwards would only be requested if the surveyor discovered other serious problems.
My last couple of boats I made aggressively low offers, with reasoning, that were expected to be rejected but then came up a bit to my target price letting the seller feel more comfortable.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

When you start talking of water damage to the deck and rotten panels then alarm bells should ring as to how it got to that state without being addressed and what else lies in wait. Either substantially reduce the offer you are thinking about or buy one of the other boats.
A read of Real Flippers posts may be in order.

 

[Jimboss1985]

I'd go off and buy one of the sister ships that are in 'great condition'. Some sellers are using the hot market to try and offload 'project' boats at silly prices to the less seasoned boat buyer. Unless you love lots of boat work verses actually using it and having fun, I'd give it the swerve.

Thanks Moonbeam. The boat is far from being a complete project but there

I have a friend who offered 8,000 for a westerly fulmarneeded headlining etc,bought without problem…….sometimes the owner is just tired and wants rid

That's what I'm hoping but talking to the broker, I think the seller probably has an overinflated idea of what it is worth...

 

[Jimboss1985]

When you start talking of water damage to the deck and rotten panels then alarm bells should ring as to how it got to that state without being addressed and what else lies in wait. Either substantially reduce the offer you are thinking about or buy one of the other boats.
A read of Real Flippers posts may be in order.

I'm 99% sure the water damage is from the leaky windows. At least 2 need replacing, probably all of them...

 

[Jimboss1985]

Thanks all for the responses. Some really useful advice ?

 

[ean_p]

remember the unknown unknowns too.........

 

[hurley]

The “hot” market for project boats is over imo.

There are 3 scenarios here as far as I see it:

1) You know what you are looking at in terms of the scope of work, and know trustworthy people who can do the work for a predictable amount of money. Add 1/3 contingency and if you can get the boat for a price that works, great, crack on.

2) You like the idea of a project boat and can take your time to get it up to scratch, probably trading some sailing time and using a mix of your own and others’ labour.

3) You hold out for a similar boat in better condition. It will cost more, but you’ll be starting from a better base and can probably get out sailing straight away. There is always more money to spend after all.

I recently went through a similar situation, with a budget of £25k for a family cruiser to replace our small racy boat.

I bought a 34 year old Westerly Fulmar which was overall very solid but had a few main issues: the decks were very untidy with treadmaster worn and lifting and the teak rubbing strake split and missing many plugs. The engine, despite being a replacement Beta, was in poor condition cosmetically and the owner had fallen behind on major service items. Most of the through hulls needed replacing. Crucially the interior had a lot of restoration done and was in good nick, including the dreaded headlining. The electronics and sails were also very new.

Concerto of these forums kindly helped me appraise the various Fulmars that were for sale at the time, and we decided this one was the most promising.

I got the boat for about 50-60% of the market value of a “good condition” example at the time. I had the essentials done in the yard next to where I bought it and then sailed it home. We could now sail the boat.

I found someone local to refinish the decks for a very sensible fee. I had a mechanic address the major outstanding service issues with the engine, having sourced the parts myself. I also replaced the running rigging myself.

So far I have spent about £21.5k of my original £25k budget. I intend to spend the last chunk having the engine pulled, all remaining auxiliaries checked / replaced where necessary and getting the whole thing cleaned and repainted so it’s easier to inspect in the future.

By the time that is done I’ll have spent 100% of my original budget and will putting in my own maintenance money going forward.

I’ve got to know the boat and it’s systems well and have sailed a couple of thousand miles with my family in the process.

I’ve previously refurbed a project boat using my own labour. Now however, I have a full time job and a young family, so time is at a premium, hence paying others to do the larger jobs. Hope this helps!

Signs of cooling in the market , is this a general consensus? Or just project boats?

Seems as though your sensible strategy has worked well for you. I'm still finding it difficult to find realistically priced boats. Perhaps this will change soon.

 

[ridgy]

When you start talking of water damage to the deck and rotten panels then alarm bells should ring as to how it got to that state without being addressed and what else lies in wait. Either substantially reduce the offer you are thinking about or buy one of the other boats.
A read of Real Flippers posts may be in order.

This.
While standing rigging etc is essentially routine maintenance, fixing decks is another level of misery. You effectively need be be getting paid to take this pos off the sellers hands. Forget being reasonable.

 

[Dutch01527]

My experience of buying old boats, old cars and old houses is that they always cost at least twice what I estimate to refurbish. Not a reason that should stop purchase but defiantly a reason to reduce offer.

I would not be worried about upsetting the seller. He/she had neglected their boat and that comes with a price.

 

[mjcoon]

I would not be worried about upsetting the seller. He/she had neglected their boat and that comes with a price.

Yes, dangling headlining is a bit "in your face"!

 

[doug748]

..........That's what I'm hoping but talking to the broker, I think the seller probably has an overinflated idea of what it is worth...

It's a list of rotten jobs.

If he wants sixteen and you fancy paying eight it's probably best to write the broker a nice letter saying that you like that boat but the work needed does not make it a viable proposition but " Do let me know if the asking price falls significantly as I will still be seriously looking for a Fulmar."
It's futile to blame the vendor, he wants what the market will bear and can always drop his price, it's rarely possible to start low and then ask for more.

As the others have hinted, paying a little over 20k should get you a well cared for example - if you can raise the steam. Mended boats often struggle to look as good as original.

.

 

[mrming]

Signs of cooling in the market , is this a general consensus? Or just project boats?

Seems as though your sensible strategy has worked well for you. I'm still finding it difficult to find realistically priced boats. Perhaps this will change soon.

What kind of boats are you looking at? The short version (imo, not a market expert by any means, just a classifieds addict, as others have pointed out there’s a lack of hard data on boat sales):
Project boats - pandemic dreamers are gone, these will be hard to sell.
Medium / poor condition MABs - back to being cheap again.
Good to great condition larger MABs - prices still good but demand softening post pandemic. Not selling quite as quickly.
Good to great condition, newer AWBs - still selling like hot cakes for high prices due to a lack of supply of new and used boats in the market.