Arthur Piver designs still around?

[dgadee]

Just rereading a couple of Arthur Piver (pronounced as in diver) books and don't think I have ever seen one of his designs in the flesh. They were designed to be easily built at home from plywood and glass. Anyone know if they lasted? There are plenty of early mirror dinghys about which used that construction, but wonder whether larger boats survived.

His books are not great literature, but a good light read. The optimism that trimarans were the future of sailing has not (except for the few) come to pass.

 

[DownWest]

Google has a piece on him. Many more built than I thought.

We get a few modern tris about here, usually with folding or sliding beams to get the width down for Marinas.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Wasn't Teignmouth Electron (Donald Crowhurst's boat) a Piver design?

 

[DownWest]

Wasn't Teignmouth Electron (Donald Crowhurst's boat) a Piver design?

Think it was based on Piver, but much modified. Certainly looked like one. Not mentioned in the Google article. But Tetley's was, in the same race. He admitted it was not realy built for that sort of hard sailing.

 

[Laminar Flow]

My fencing instructor had one of his designs, a 37 footer I believe; never would go to weather.
Piver disappearing at sea in one of his creations was not exactly an advertisement for the type and there were quite a few tragedies associated with his designs, some due, no doubt, to inadequate amateur construction.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Think it was based on Piver, but much modified. Certainly looked like one. Not mentioned in the Google article. But Tetley's was, in the same race. He admitted it was not realy built for that sort of hard sailing.

From what I recall from the book, it was built to a Piver design (Victress, I think), but because of rushed construction and difficulties with materials, there were various shortcomings in her construction - the structure and sealing of hatches in the forward end of the hulls being one that gave repeated trouble according to Crowhurst's log. The interior was completely one-off, to Crowhurst's own specifications, and pretty unfinished when he left. Of course, Crowhurst was obsessed with the potential for flipping a multihull, so there were things like escape hatches in the underside, as well as the inflatable masthead recovery system that was never fully installed.

 

[DownWest]

My fencing instructor had one of his designs, a 37 footer I believe; never would go to weather.
Piver disappearing at sea in one of his creations was not exactly an advertisement for the type and there were quite a few tragedies associated with his designs, some due, no doubt, to inadequate amateur construction.

Yes, but he borrowed it to get the 500nm qualifying cruise for the Golden Globe race, since he had left his in UK. So it was likely an amateur built one. Certainly the Crowhurst and Tetley problems were not great adverts.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Yes, but he borrowed it to get the 500nm qualifying cruise for the Golden Globe race, since he had left his in UK. So it was likely an amateur built one. Certainly the Crowhurst and Tetley problems were not great adverts.

If Crowhurst hadn't faked his reports, Tetley might have made it - it was thinking that Crowhurst was on his heels that made him push too hard, so his yacht broke up. And that was the final thing that drove Crowhurst over the edge; both guilt and the knowledge that his fakery would inevitably come to light.

A very tragic story, where one man's inability to recognise his own limitations killed both him and Tetley.

We should recognize that by today's standards, many yachts of that era were incredibly lightly built. Plywood has nowhere near the strength and resilience of a GRP hull; I have an early memory of being in a plywood boat that nearly sank because of a stove in panel; a GRP hull would just have been scratched by the impact that stove the panel. But many people went to sea in them; it was a cheap, cost effective type of construction that was amenable to one-offs and home construction.

 

[Poignard]

If Crowhurst hadn't faked his reports, Tetley might have made it - it was thinking that Crowhurst was on his heels that made him push too hard, so his yacht broke up. And that was the final thing that drove Crowhurst over the edge; both guilt and the knowledge that his fakery would inevitably come to light.

A very tragic story, where one man's inability to recognise his own limitations killed both him and Tetley.

It certainly was a tragic story. But with a heart-warming end when Robin Knox-Johnston donated his prize-money to Donald Crowhurst's widow.

 

[DownWest]

If Crowhurst hadn't faked his reports, Tetley might have made it - it was thinking that Crowhurst was on his heels that made him push too hard, so his yacht broke up. And that was the final thing that drove Crowhurst over the edge; both guilt and the knowledge that his fakery would inevitably come to light.

A very tragic story, where one man's inability to recognise his own limitations killed both him and Tetley.

We should recognize that by today's standards, many yachts of that era were incredibly lightly built. Plywood has nowhere near the strength and resilience of a GRP hull; I have an early memory of being in a plywood boat that nearly sank because of a stove in panel; a GRP hull would just have been scratched by the impact that stove the panel. But many people went to sea in them; it was a cheap, cost effective type of construction that was amenable to one-offs and home construction.

Have to take issue with the plywood comments. It is still a popular material for construction and very effective if used within it's limits, like any other material. Stormvogle was built in ply. Mainly because the owner owned a big ply outfit.. Just use it as appropriate. Back in the ply era, glues became the problem. Now with epoxy, far less so.

 

[zoidberg]

Have to take issue with the plywood comments. It is still a popular material for construction and very effective if used within it's limits, like any other material. Just use it as appropriate. Back in the ply era, glues became the problem. Now with epoxy, far less so.

And epoxy-saturated ply is something else again.

 

[Poignard]

Have to take issue with the plywood comments. It is still a popular material for construction and very effective if used within it's limits, like any other material. Stormvogle was built in ply. Mainly because the owner owned a big ply outfit.. Just use it as appropriate. Back in the ply era, glues became the problem. Now with epoxy, far less so.

You still see quite a lot of small plywood cruisers where I am in Brittany. Most are very well maintained.

 

[Laminar Flow]

If Crowhurst hadn't faked his reports, Tetley might have made it - it was thinking that Crowhurst was on his heels that made him push too hard, so his yacht broke up. And that was the final thing that drove Crowhurst over the edge; both guilt and the knowledge that his fakery would inevitably come to light.

A very tragic story, where one man's inability to recognise his own limitations killed both him and Tetley.

We should recognize that by today's standards, many yachts of that era were incredibly lightly built. Plywood has nowhere near the strength and resilience of a GRP hull; I have an early memory of being in a plywood boat that nearly sank because of a stove in panel; a GRP hull would just have been scratched by the impact that stove the panel. But many people went to sea in them; it was a cheap, cost effective type of construction that was amenable to one-offs and home construction.

A plywood boat can be built as strongly as any other. In fact a coldmolded wooden hull is just that. In this context a ply hull can be very lightly and strongly built and certainly Van de Stadt managed to design quite a few that managed to hold together well enough.
The problem with Piver's designs is that he underestimated the exceptional loads caused by the amas in a seaway. Early ply catamarans had the same problems.

As a designer, I should have thought that Piver would have been able to assess whether the boat he disappeared on was built to spec or not.

Thin skins, regardless whether in wood or GRP, are susceptible to point of impact loads, especially at high(er) speeds. This is actually a fair point in favour for the more elephantine skins on some of the MABs in regards to all the perennial old versus new discussions.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

A plywood boat can be built as strongly as any other. In fact a coldmolded wooden hull is just that. In this context a ply hull can be very lightly and strongly built and certainly Van de Stadt managed to design quite a few that managed to hold together well enough.
The problem with Piver's designs is that he underestimated the exceptional loads caused by the amas in a seaway. Early ply catamarans had the same problems.

As a designer, I should have thought that Piver would have been able to assess whether the boat he disappeared on was built to spec or not.

Thin skins, regardless whether in wood or GRP, are susceptible to point of impact loads, especially at high(er) speeds. This is actually a fair point in favour for the more elephantine skins on some of the MABs in regards to all the perennial old versus new discussions.

All you say is perfectly true of modern boats, built with epoxy resins, and where you are really using wood reinforced plastic . And under most normal uses, plywood is a perfectly good material for a boat! It is amazingly strong for its weight; it was, if course, first developed for aeronautical use . But both from personal experience, eyewitness reports (a neighboring yacht at South Ferriby which was lost on passage in the North Sea by impact with wood) and books like the Bailey's of "117 days adrift", the plywood construction of the 1960s was far more susceptible to being damaged by impacts than GRP boats, if hit in the centre of a panel. I can't comment on modern boats, but I am quite sure that my Moody 31 would survive an impact that would sink a plywood vessel; GRP is intrinsically stronger than plywood, and mostly of greater thickness than any plywood that would have been used for an equivalent 1960s built plywood boat.

You may recall the "Crash Test Boat" series. On one of them, they wished to test various ways of blocking a hole in the hull. I recall that they found it very difficult to make a hole in the hull by impact, and ended up using some kind of electric saw. I can't imagine they would have had the same difficulty on a 1960s plywood vessel.

 

[Laminar Flow]

All you say is perfectly true of modern boats, built with epoxy resins, and where you are really using wood reinforced plastic . And under most normal uses, plywood is a perfectly good material for a boat! It is amazingly strong for its weight; it was, if course, first developed for aeronautical use . But both from personal experience, eyewitness reports (a neighboring yacht at South Ferriby which was lost on passage in the North Sea by impact with wood) and books like the Bailey's of "117 days adrift", the plywood construction of the 1960s was far more susceptible to being damaged by impacts than GRP boats, if hit in the centre of a panel. I can't comment on modern boats, but I am quite sure that my Moody 31 would survive an impact that would sink a plywood vessel; GRP is intrinsically stronger than plywood, and mostly of greater thickness than any plywood that would have been used for an equivalent 1960s built plywood boat.

You may recall the "Crash Test Boat" series. On one of them, they wished to test various ways of blocking a hole in the hull. I recall that they found it very difficult to make a hole in the hull by impact, and ended up using some kind of electric saw. I can't imagine they would have had the same difficulty on a 1960s plywood vessel.

For what it's worth, I used to own one of these 1960's ply wood boats, a 30' Griffiths Water Witch. I did a few repairs to it's skin, so I know how they are built. Mine was two layers of 1/2" ply over 12" centre frames.

In our neck of the woods there is a very considerable amount of drift wood, not the twig variety, but 40' logs. Some of these float vertically, only just, and are appropriately called dead heads.

I did hit a few of these, at night and under power and of a size that stopped her six tons dead in the water. Some would bounce along the hull under water like a big booming drum. None of it caused the slightest bit of damage. To be fair, nothing about a Water Which could be mistaken for high speed.

I may be wrong, but I recall the Bailey's Lucille to have been of traditional carvel construction.

 

[Bajansailor]

I may be wrong, but I recall the Bailey's Lucille to have been of traditional carvel construction.

Just a slight correction - Lucette was the schooner sailed by the Robinsons - she was traditional carvel construction, and she had an encounter with Orcas.
There was also the saga of the Baileys who were sailing a plywood Golden Hind 31 called Auralyn - they also probably had an encounter with Orcas and Auralyn sank fairly quickly - I remember reading that the bilge plates hampered their efforts at trying to block the hole punched in the hull, and pretty soon they had to admit defeat and take to the liferaft - where they spent 118 days before being rescued.

Getting back to Piver trimarans, here is an interesting (and currently active) thread about them on the Boat Design Forum in the USA.
Tri, Tri, Tri

 

[Laminar Flow]

Just a slight correction - Lucette was the schooner sailed by the Robinsons - she was traditional carvel construction, and she had an encounter with Orcas.
There was also the saga of the Baileys who were sailing a plywood Golden Hind 31 called Auralyn - they also probably had an encounter with Orcas and Auralyn sank fairly quickly - I remember reading that the bilge plates hampered their efforts at trying to block the hole punched in the hull, and pretty soon they had to admit defeat and take to the liferaft - where they spent 118 days before being rescued.

Getting back to Piver trimarans, here is an interesting (and currently active) thread about them on the Boat Design Forum in the USA.
Tri, Tri, Tri

Thank you for setting that straight, it was a while ago that I read these accounts.

 

[Blueboatman]

Any sheathing would help the ply against collapse from impact , epoxy/cloth probably more so than the fibreglass /cloth that it has superseded.
I recall a post by Nick Gates shipwright, positing that old ply when demolishing a truly past it hulk, possibly showed brittleness characteristics.
Perhaps down to glues evolving ??

Fwiw Bailey used to run a shop in Lymington after successfully returning , but I never dared broach The Subject

 

[Wansworth]

Just a slight correction - Lucette was the schooner sailed by the Robinsons - she was traditional carvel construction, and she had an encounter with Orcas.
There was also the saga of the Baileys who were sailing a plywood Golden Hind 31 called Auralyn - they also probably had an encounter with Orcas and Auralyn sank fairly quickly - I remember reading that the bilge plates hampered their efforts at trying to block the hole punched in the hull, and pretty soon they had to admit defeat and take to the liferaft - where they spent 118 days before being rescued.

Getting back to Piver trimarans, here is an interesting (and currently active) thread about them on the Boat Design Forum in the USA.
Tri, Tri, Tri

It was a Hillyard

 

[Tranona]

You are right about sheathing. My Eventide (built by the same builders as the Bailey's GH) was Cascover sheathed from new. The biggest weakness long term is water entering the end grain. There were a couple of areas where water had got in from poorly bedded toerails, and although I fixed the toe rail problems damp had run down a couple of frames and got into the ply leaving some softs pots. The coachroof was not sheathed and the panels were screwed and butt joined on beams. The sealing and filler of the screw heads failed allowing water in. I caught most before serious damage and repaired with a mixture of veneers, glass cloth and epoxy. Learned a lot about ply construction and think now it would be possible to build a light strong boat without the drawbacks of more traditional methods used in the past. indeed there are many successful boats such as some Dudley Dix designs being built today.