Are we building in complexity we just don't need

[geem]

This is a generic Victron diagramatic of how to install lithium on a boat according to a Victron engineer.
A friend is converting over from four gel batteries on a modern 57 foot boat to lithium. He has very limited experience of boats but has been sold the lithium dream. The diagramatic bears no resemblance to his existing wiring so effectively, a large chunk of the existing system will need ripping out and starting again. The boat is complexed. He has electric genoa and inmast furling, electric winches, bow thruster and stern thrusters, 1660w of solar, washing machine, Aircon, etc.
The electrician doing the design work is not the same one that is doing the installation.
Once this complex boat has been made more complex by this conversion and he is several thousand pounds worse off he will have more battery capacity. Is it worth it?
The solar arch alone has cost $8000

 

[capnsensible]

Is he dipping his toe in the market?

 

[fredrussell]

Is he dipping his toe in the market?

Why? Do you feel something’s afoot?

 

[Wansworth]

57foot boat,limited experience of boats?. Complex electrical installation,some people believe in technology and science that scares me

 

[capnsensible]

Why? Do you feel something’s afoot?

You've nailed it.

 

[geem]

57foot boat,limited experience of boats?. Complex electrical installation,some people believe in technology and science that scares me

It's his first boat. Sold up everything and moved aboard. He is having all the work done by others. Super nice guy but little experience and making a few fundamental errors on other stuff

 

[Capt Popeye]

Why? Do you feel something’s afoot?

You've nailed it.

Yea most likely to Stub his toe with all that going on

In reality if undertaking the conversion on his yacht , one is best to ask and pay for the Proffesionals to do it ; owning a large yacht with many systems and devices has its own responsibilities and jargon , and pitfalls , not a Task that should be taken lightly I guess

 

[dankilb]

It looks like he’s even had it laminated - he must be very convinced his future is ‘blue’!

 

[dankilb]

…as a less cynical take, I’ve found those Victron diagrams quite helpful for planning our rewire (no lithium… yet - but a new Multiplus and update to MPPTs, split charging, etc.) on a ‘take it or leave it’ basis. Of course, they propose all sort of victron bits - but you can substitute, say, their fancy VSR for your existing diode (or whatever) and see how it might all go together.

 

[Tranona]

Depends on who the "we" are! In this case it seems clear that the owner is sold on electric so getting the professionals to do it is sensible. As to whether it is a good idea and worth the cost is surely his decision, not ours. Personally I would not touch that lot with a bargepole, but then I am not he!

 

[[2574]]

For me the rush to lithium is premature, it’s complex stuff which, unless one really enjoys the technical challenges, is asking a lot of a DIY boater. If blue water cruising there will be occasions when it is DIY like it or not. I’ve just repowered my boat and have gone AGM again, costing a third of lithium equivalent, so I can replace the bank three times and still be at no greater cost.

The idea of selling everything and buying a big first yacht is also fairly up the risk curve to say the least….but then the first world is increasingly a basket case for sure…

 

[fredrussell]

If money is no option (and with the amount of blue stuff on that schematic it would have to be) I say why not? Plenty of boat owners are inveterate fettlers, this is just fettling on a grand scale. By ‘fettling’ I suppose I mean doing something that isn’t, strictly speaking, necessary.

 

[LONG_KEELER]

I suppose we should be grateful to them for being pathfinders before we have to shell out.

I took this picture of an Arcona yacht which has twin electric pods fitted. I'm guessing that they have a diesel generator which charges a Lithium power bank. Interesting positions for a yacht.

Or perhaps they are battery chargers themselves ?

 

[Tranona]

They do indeed regenerate. Trick props that also function as turbine blades when not propelling. Not the only builder offering this setup, but you need deep pockets and have to accept relatively limited range. Regeneration only works when you get above 6 knots and really kicks in above 8 so you need a performance boat like an Arcona to get any energy from this source. don't think it has diesel backup because that defeats the object because of the weight and space it takes up. So limited to usage patterns that can live with less than 80 miles usable range.

 

[lustyd]

have to accept relatively limited range.

This is a common misunderstanding. These electric yachts with solar and regen have unlimited range between fills. This is infinitely more than a diesel. The range per time period is certainly lower but to say range is low on something that generates it’s own energy is plain wrong. Their range is a lot higher than 80 miles these days too, depending on batteries. I suspect we’ll soon start to see electric and regen optimised hull designs which will improve things further. Now that diesel has well and truly hit £2/l I think the economics are starting to change dramatically for some use cases.

 

[Frogmogman]

This is a common misunderstanding. These electric yachts with solar and regen have unlimited range between fills. This is infinitely more than a diesel. The range per time period is certainly lower but to say range is low on something that generates it’s own energy is plain wrong. Their range is a lot higher than 80 miles these days too, depending on batteries. I suspect we’ll soon start to see electric and regen optimised hull designs which will improve things further. Now that diesel has well and truly hit £2/l I think the economics are starting to change dramatically for some use cases.

Agreed. It’s a shame that the word “auxiliary” has been dropped from the description of a sailing yacht fitted with an engine for occasional use.

All of these things depend on how you plan to use your boat. There is no obligation to maintain, say, 6 knots. I suspect someone buying such Arcona is not planning to motor everywhere.

 

[Tranona]

This is a common misunderstanding. These electric yachts with solar and regen have unlimited range between fills. This is infinitely more than a diesel. The range per time period is certainly lower but to say range is low on something that generates it’s own energy is plain wrong. Their range is a lot higher than 80 miles these days too, depending on batteries. I suspect we’ll soon start to see electric and regen optimised hull designs which will improve things further. Now that diesel has well and truly hit £2/l I think the economics are starting to change dramatically for some use cases.

Note the word "relatively". Typical diesel has maybe 4-500 miles range in the size of boat where regenerating pods are practical. The 80 miles is a reasonable ball park, but it is at lower cruising speed than might be used with diesel and regeneration is dependent on being able to sail at around 8 knots to be worthwhile. Otherwise you are dependent on shorepower or backup generator.

Really no different from electric cars - the "official" range figures are derived from a test that bears no relation to real life use, but if you operate within in a way that fits with using the capacity range of the battery of between say 40-80% then they are fine. However you get stuffed if you try to get your theoretical 300 miles (or whatever) in one shot then be prepared to call the AA.

The types of use where electric only sailing yachts are viable are extremely rare and insufficient to justify anything more than a few niche designs.

Cost of fuel is irrelevant for the vast majority of leisure users. It may, of course be important for certain types of high hours commercial use, but then there is nothing new about this and electricity has been used for years in many such applications. However the growth in this market will depend more on the increase in energy density of batteries and the availability of fast charging points rather than iffy regeneration - again rather like automotive applications.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Geem as I sure you will know liveabord are no longer happy with pluging in the 600w kettle which was luxurious,
Now it's coffee machine,microwave, washing machine even a dryer complicity seen to be the name of the game , till it all goes tits up,
Lithium has made it possible.
When I build my bank of 400ah by the time I finished added on new 780w panels BMS, breakers , fuses,mppt inverter so on I wiped out 3.5k, and that doing it all myself That's just a drop in the ocean ,
We have friends who spends over 20 to 30k admittly there are 100% self-sufficient when it comes to power and heating able to operate any house hold equipment plus more as long as the sun shine for free,
(What did I read yesterday, house energy bill £3,500 py )
I think the problem is the same people don't understand how this all works and when it does go wrong the cost of putting the it right can be sky high that if you can find a specialist to do the job .
No matter what any of us here think , there going to be more of this happening on boats that are full time cruisers/ liveaboad .

 

[sailaboutvic]

Just to add we missing our lithium on our new to us boat,
It be something I be looking at over the winter

 

[newtothis]

Just to add we missing our lithium on our new to us boat,
It be something I be looking at over the winter

I work on the sidelines of commercial shipping, where carriage of Li batteries is becoming quite a talking point, whether it is in containers or on car carriers with new EVs.
There have been a number of fires that are thought to have been caused by Li batteries. From the limited amount I know about the science, little other than deep-sixing them will put out a fire when thermal runaway occurs.
I'd have thought this would be a major deterrent to using them on a small plastic boat, but there seems to have been little discussion of it.
Is it a matter of when, not if?