Are we building in complexity we just don't need

[sailaboutvic]

I work on the sidelines of commercial shipping, where carriage of Li batteries is becoming quite a talking point, whether it is in containers or on car carriers with new EVs.
There have been a number of fires that are thought to have been caused by Li batteries. From the limited amount I know about the science, little other than deep-sixing them will put out a fire when thermal runaway occurs.
I'd have thought this would be a major deterrent to using them on a small plastic boat, but there seems to have been little discussion of it.
Is it a matter of when, not if?

Im not going to go into the ins and out of lithium, I let other with much more knowledge them me explain it.
But I say this type of comment is why the new owners of my boat removed the lithium and replace them with even after there where checked out by a batteries engineer and was told the set up was good and lithium is the future.
There a big different between lithium used on boats and them in cars.

Two other friends snap them up quickly,I'm please my hard work and expense have gone to good homes .

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Yea most likely to Stub his toe with all that going on

In reality if undertaking the conversion on his yacht , one is best to ask and pay for the Proffesionals to do it ; owning a large yacht with many systems and devices has its own responsibilities and jargon , and pitfalls , not a Task that should be taken lightly I guess

I would take the opposite view especially if planing to cruise off the beaten track, there is no substitute toknowing ones boat and systems inside out even with a bank account full of money and Amex card. Installing systems and understanding how they work especially modifications is about the only way to get such knowledge.

 

[Blueboatman]

Obviously as a power tool user I am a massive fan of smart battery technology.

I wonder if plug n play is the way to go? The battery and all its control circuitry is sealed into a box that is assembled in a quality-consistent factory production process..
No service parts, no multiple connectors , no salt water ingress.. ??

I always fancied the apocryphal, sailable folkboat with but a sculling oar, candle lighting , bucket and a car battery at the foot of the mast and two wires running up to an all round light at the top , ‘switched on’ by attaching the second crocodile clip…

Cold beers available @ beach bar

 

[geem]

Geem as I sure you will know liveabord are no longer happy with pluging in the 600w kettle which was luxurious,
Now it's coffee machine,microwave, washing machine even a dryer complicity seen to be the name of the game , till it all goes tits up,
Lithium has made it possible.
When I build my bank of 400ah by the time I finished added on new 780w panels BMS, breakers , fuses,mppt inverter so on I wiped out 3.5k, and that doing it all myself That's just a drop in the ocean ,
We have friends who spends over 20 to 30k admittly there are 100% self-sufficient when it comes to power and heating able to operate any house hold equipment plus more as long as the sun shine for free,
(What did I read yesterday, house energy bill £3,500 py )
I think the problem is the same people don't understand how this all works and when it does go wrong the cost of putting the it right can be sky high that if you can find a specialist to do the job .
No matter what any of us here think , there going to be more of this happening on boats that are full time cruisers/ liveaboad .

All very true Vic. I understand how this kit works. I am just not sure I want to run my boat on it. My existing system is not so reliant on electronic
I struggle to justify the cost when my Trojans are so cheap to replace in the Caribbean. Less than £600 a bank at today's prices.
We have no shortage of power ever. We heat the water, make ice, etc. We

I work on the sidelines of commercial shipping, where carriage of Li batteries is becoming quite a talking point, whether it is in containers or on car carriers with new EVs.
There have been a number of fires that are thought to have been caused by Li batteries. From the limited amount I know about the science, little other than deep-sixing them will put out a fire when thermal runaway occurs.
I'd have thought this would be a major deterrent to using them on a small plastic boat, but there seems to have been little discussion of it.
Is it a matter of when, not if?

The problem of lithium batteries is that they all get lumped together as a single technology went they are not. The technology used on boats is lifePO4. This is considered a safe lithium technology where thermal runaway is unheard of. There is a theoretical small risk in an uncontrolled overcharge situation but I am not aware of a single fire associated with LifePO4 technology on a boat.

 

[geem]

Deleted

 

[sailaboutvic]

What I find a bit scary are the people who buy unknown drop in batteries.
No idea what cells are in them or how they are build and what BMS if any .

I perfir to build my own but if I was to buy drop In,
I pay the extra and buy a well know make .

 

[Cloona]

I had to explain to someone that a depth sounder will never stop you running aground ..

A wind direction indicator won't change the direction the wind is coming from on ..

A wind speed indicator will not reduce the wind

 

[Blueboatman]

My pa used to have a state of the art ‘Wonderbox’ radio direction finder with a huge rotatable aerial loop on top and a pair of bakelight headphones …powered by 90volt dry cell battery.
Hours of fun lying on the foredeck waiting for the 6minute sequence of lighthouse radio transmissions to come around and looking for the signal ‘ null’..
It’s very imprecision was a valuable lesson in navigating with an edge of caution always !

Ironically , with the advent of li-ion 18v, 12v, 1.2v units, it would have been possible to make up a rechargeable 90v battery pack ..

Would not necessarily tell you where you are though ?

 

[dslittle]

You've nailed it.

That’s just corny…

 

[LittleSister]

I feel it's a step in the wrong direction.

 

[Wansworth]

Obviously as a power tool user I am a massive fan of smart battery technology.

I wonder if plug n play is the way to go? The battery and all its control circuitry is sealed into a box that is assembled in a quality-consistent factory production process..
No service parts, no multiple connectors , no salt water ingress.. ??

I always fancied the apocryphal, sailable folkboat with but a sculling oar, candle lighting , bucket and a car battery at the foot of the mast and two wires running up to an all round light at the top , ‘switched on’ by attaching the second crocodile clip…

Cold beers available @ beach bar

Had something similar,has its down side like getting too close to rocks

 

[obmij]

This is a generic Victron diagramatic of how to install lithium on a boat according to a Victron engineer.
A friend is converting over from four gel batteries on a modern 57 foot boat to lithium. He has very limited experience of boats but has been sold the lithium dream. The diagramatic bears no resemblance to his existing wiring so effectively, a large chunk of the existing system will need ripping out and starting again. The boat is complexed. He has electric genoa and inmast furling, electric winches, bow thruster and stern thrusters, 1660w of solar, washing machine, Aircon, etc.
The electrician doing the design work is not the same one that is doing the installation.
Once this complex boat has been made more complex by this conversion and he is several thousand pounds worse off he will have more battery capacity. Is it worth it?
The solar arch alone has cost $8000

Best of luck to your friend but this sounds like an absolute catastrophe.

Certain things will not work. The installer will blame the designer. The designer will blame the installer. Both will shrug and walk away. A third party will be engaged who will tut and whistle and find fault with everything. New work will be proposed...

Simply put a partial electrical upgrade with multiple involved parties is likely to be a ballache of immense proportions.

No it is not worth the extra capacity at any price.

 

[Tranona]

Best of luck to your friend but this sounds like an absolute catastrophe.

Certain things will not work. The installer will blame the designer. The designer will blame the installer. Both will shrug and walk away. A third party will be engaged who will tut and whistle and find fault with everything. New work will be proposed...

These folks will have been plumbers installing central heating in a previous life.

 

[Wansworth]

Best of luck to your friend but this sounds like an absolute catastrophe.

Certain things will not work. The installer will blame the designer. The designer will blame the installer. Both will shrug and walk away. A third party will be engaged who will tut and whistle and find fault with everything. New work will be proposed...

Simply put a partial electrical upgrade with multiple involved parties is likely to be a ballache of immense proportions.

No it is not worth the extra capacity at any price.

You have a sound grasp of human nature?

 

[sailaboutvic]

Best of luck to your friend but this sounds like an absolute catastrophe.

Certain things will not work. The installer will blame the designer. The designer will blame the installer. Both will shrug and walk away. A third party will be engaged who will tut and whistle and find fault with everything. New work will be proposed...

Simply put a partial electrical upgrade with multiple involved parties is likely to be a ballache of immense proportions.

No it is not worth the extra capacity at any price.

ON the face it's complex but installer right and the owner can grasp how it works it be all right on the night .

If People here take a look on off grid system fourm or lithium on boats you soon realise these system are not unusual,

 

[Supertramp]

The reality is that boats are complex things. You can make it simple but I for one like on demand hot and cold etc. The big difference between boats and other domestic systens is the need to diagnose, manage or repair without specialist skills and knowledge and using simple tools. Some modern kit fits with this but beware the devil of complexit, black box style or joined up systems.

But if no-one ever tried a chartplotter or AIS or lithium batteries we would never move forward. The risk is becoming dependent on new stuff to the extent that you forget how to do things properly, and make decisions and choices based on the new complicated stuff.

Another example is provision of weather info. With it you can make different decisions from looking at the clouds and smelling the air. I had to move anchorage 3 times in the last 3 days because the forecast information was wrong. Without all this complex stuff I would have made my own call and anchored somewhere safe. Once.

In answer to your question, yes, but don't stop progress from happening. After all that's where grp came from...