Are there many idiots dry sanding anti fouling where you are

[rivonia]

Here in Lefkas Marina (Greece) you would not believe the way they sand of the Anti-Foul. They mask up, zip up get the sanders and that is it for hour after hour. They are then covered in the dust. They take of the cheap masks and paper suit and there whole body is covered in a blue powder. I always was led to believe that it was "CARCONERGENIC" am I right or wrong?
rather them than me. We hold our breath and get past as fast as poss.

Peter

 

[ccscott49]

Here in Corfu, they do it all the time!! Horrendous! I will and do tell them, but of course this is Greece and they just ignore you! They are Greeks and do what they want to there and anybody around thems' inviroment. But the local antifoul blaster, has to sheet up the whole boat and dispose of any blastings, but funnily enough he is British!! and the marina (who do the other blasting) dont give a ****. and they are very strict with him. This is not an anti Greek rant, but things are done differently around here.

 

[ccscott49]

Here in Lefkas Marina (Greece) you would not believe the way they sand of the Anti-Foul. They mask up, zip up get the sanders and that is it for hour after hour. They are then covered in the dust. They take of the cheap masks and paper suit and there whole body is covered in a blue powder. I always was led to believe that it was "CARCONERGENIC" am I right or wrong?
rather them than me. We hold our breath and get past as fast as poss.

Peter

Could be red as well!! Biut I get your point very well.

 

[prv]

I always was led to believe that it was "CARCONERGENIC"

Most things are, including burnt toast and chewing the plastic lid of a biro, according to my old science teacher.

Pete

 

[andygc]

However other googling has shown that it is the solvents that carry the antifoul which are properly harmful. So sanding down old antifoul is more on the irritant scale (lungs, skin and other boatowners).

Wrong.

For example

Environ Pollut. 2009 May;157(5):1526-32. Epub 2009 Feb 20.
Bioaccessibility of metals in soils and dusts contaminated by marine antifouling paint particles.

Turner A, Singh N, Richards JP.

School of Earth, Ocean and Environmental Sciences, University of Plymouth, Drake Circus, Plymouth PL4 8AA, UK. aturner@plymouth.ac.uk
Abstract

Fragments of antifouling paint and environmental geosolids have been sampled from the island of Malta and analysed for total and bioaccessible metals. Total concentrations of Ba, Cd, Cu, Pb, Sn and Zn were two to three orders of magnitude higher in spent antifouling composites relative to respective values in background soils and road dusts. Paint fragments were visible in geosolids taken from the immediate vicinity of boat maintenance facilities and mass balance calculations, based on Ba as a paint tracer, suggested that the most contaminated soils, road dusts and boatyard dusts contained about 1%, 7% and 9%, respectively, of antifouling particles. Human bioaccessibilities of metals were evaluated in selected samples using a physiologically based extraction technique. Accessibilities of Cd, Cu, Pb and Zn in the most contaminated solids were sufficient to be cause for concern for individuals working in the boat repair industry and to the wider, local community.

 

[LittleShip]

Are there many idiots dry sanding anti fouling where you are or is it just my yard.

Philiz...... come out come out wherever you are

Tom

 

[richardabeattie]

At the risk of being boring I can only repeat that I have not antifouled my bilge keeler for the last ten years and the sky has not fallen in. I start with a clean bottom, I dry out midsummer and spend twenty minutes scrubbing off with the back of a broom head and I pressure wash when I lift out. I find that this is cheaper, quicker, and more environmentally friendly. It is also cheaper. Did I mention that it's also quicker?

 

[Lakesailor]

Environ Pollut. 2009 May;157(5):1526-32. Epub 2009 Feb 20.
Bioaccessibility of metals in soils and dusts contaminated by marine antifouling paint particles.

Great.
You prove my point.

We are being told by you that antifoul particles are carcinogenic. Re: the document.

That is dated May 2009

Look back to the quotation I posted. The investigation of antifouls had to be completed by 2008 and the resulting paints with a Low or basic level would be the only ones allowed to be marketed.

The particles sampled in your document will have been deposited before any of the changes to the allowable products. (Quite apart from the fact that the research was done in Malta???)

It also refers to

cause for concern for individuals working in the boat repair industry and to the wider, local community.

which infers that a constant cloud of particles on a daily basis is the problem. Not one boat, once a year, in one location.

I'm not arguing that a film of blue or whatever dust all over a neighbouring boat is a complete pain in the arse.

 

[prv]

All I know is that I made myself ill last year by sanding old antifoul. Thing was that I hadn't set out to sand it, so didn't take any particular precautions. I was there doing something else, and spotted some manky flakey bits, and decided to take a scraper to them. It was a bit like picking a scab - as long as I was still knocking bits off, I kept scraping, and before you know it I was sat under there with most of the starboard side done, raining dust down around myself.

I was fine at the time, but started wheezing that evening, and had various respiratory complaints for about two weeks after. Not very clever. Finer dust from sanding rather than scraping probably would have been worse.

I was out there today, wet sanding with one of those "drywall screens" on a pole.

Pete

 

[doug748]

At the risk of being boring I can only repeat that I have not antifouled my bilge keeler for the last ten years and the sky has not fallen in. I start with a clean bottom, I dry out midsummer and spend twenty minutes scrubbing off with the back of a broom head and I pressure wash when I lift out. I find that this is cheaper, quicker, and more environmentally friendly. It is also cheaper. Did I mention that it's also quicker?

You are not boring me Richard - I take it you have posted on this before?

Do you keep the boat on a drying mooring?
What paint do you use? Or is it just bare gelcoat?
Where do you keep the vessel?

As I like to come out for a mid season scrub, I might give it a try. I am attracted to the cheap bit.

 

[richardabeattie]

Yes it's a drying mooring so she sits down in the mud. No I don't paint the bottom with anything. So she looks a bit scruffy when she's out of the water - so what?
I moor outside Birdham Pool in Chichester. The bottom gets a bit barnacled in the early summer so that's when I dry out on a sand bank and spend my few minutes with the broom. At the haul out there's another thin layer of fouling which comes off with a pressure wash. I might consider using antifouling if I raced or if I wanted her to look good before selling her. Or if it contained any stuff which actually works!

 

[andygc]

Great.
You prove my point..

Hardly - the paper concerned does not claim that the metals investigated are carcinogenic. The biotoxins that you mentioned do included some of the metals that were identified (particularly tin). However, antifouling paints still contain bioavailable metallic compounds, especially copper compounds (if they didn't they wouldn't work). Those metallic compounds can be absorbed from inhaled and ingested dust. They are toxic to humans at the cellular level.

There is no difference between the physical and toxological properties of bioavailable metallic compounds in Malta and in Britain. The only likely difference is the probably more rigorous adherence to safe working practices in UK boatyards.

There is also the wholly separate issue of generating respirable irritant and toxic particles which can be a cause of both acute and chronic respiratory disease, including asthma and pulmonary fibrosis. Individual susceptibility varies greatly and is unpredictable.

You are welcome to continue to argue your point from the perspective of a total ignorance of toxicology. The readers of this thread can follow your advice by generating dust which is known to be toxic (to be inhaled and ingested by themselves and those around them), or they can be on the side of the original poster who correctly referred to those who do so as "idiots".

You might like to reflect on the advice provided by all manufacturers of antifouling paint that dry sanding of their products is dangerous to the health of those doing it and is also a source of environmental pollution. As I am not a lawyer I won't comment on the illegality of failing to contain antifouling waste.

 

[Poignard]

It may not be illegal or dangerous (although I think it is) but what about the fact that it is b----y inconsiderate to cover someone else's boat with your debris?

Or are yachtsmen now adopting the 'F--- you, I'll do what I like' attitude that prevails elsewhere?

 

[Scotty_Tradewind]

You may well be looking at the H&S data for just the application of fresh paint when solvents will be an issue and the other ingredients in the paint will not become free particles in the atmosphere.

If you look at bit further; http://www.boatpaint.co.uk/datashee..._Manuals/International_antifoulings_guide.pdf you'll see that International say on page 16

NOTE:
Even if the antifouling is exhausted, the dust and fumes given off during dry
sanding will still be toxic.​

Mind you on page 13 they say don't wet sand, which I thought was the way to do it.

Proof enough for me. I don't think its worth filling your lungs with the dust.

On page 18 it says wet sand??

I had to ask someone in the yard to stop dry sanding a couple of years ago. He did stop immediatly being new to the 'game' he was unaware of the dangers.
I use a green abrasive pad with a hose pipe to keep the surface wet so I get rid of a lot of the build-up of antifoul at the beginning of each season, before I put the new antifoul on.
However, the old antifoul is simply washed onto the boatyard ground probably doing environmental damage. What is the answer to preventing this other than to do it dry with vacuum attached? Where would you then get rid of the dust?

 

[Zen Zero]

Here in Italy the ground in our boatyard turns blue. Last year, when I didn't know any better, I turned blue too - my white paper suit, cheap dust mask, goggles and bandana stopped some but not all of it. I do wonder about the environmental damage, but I'm still with us, as are the boatyard weeds.

The boatyard boss has prohibited self-careening this year, preferring to get us to pay his boys to do it, I wonder if this is due to the interference of the local health people?

In any case I'm glad to have the excuse to get someone else to do it!

 

[davidfox]

I might consider using antifouling if I raced or if I wanted her to look good before selling her. Or if it contained any stuff which actually works!

I am sort of starting to agree with you, my boat has still got plenty of anti fouling on from previous years, which is a bit flakey and certainly dusty, but so what, I dont race! I was tempted not to put on any this year and see what happened, just have a haul out and jet wash mid season on one of the special offers they do. I chickened out as the boat didnt look 'pretty enough' prior to going back in, so I put on a thin coat of UNO - 4 ltrs for a 42ft boat (one new tin and the remains from last year) i am going to see what happens this year. I wonder why people sand off any way? I have never done it in 11 years of boat ownership - (7 with this one). Dont we want the antifouling to come off in the water, are we being conned by the manufacturers? If you read the instructions, sanding, priming, applying 2-3 coats, we are being asked to spend a lot of time and money putting on stuff that we want to come off!

 

[Victoria Sponge]

We've gone for this:

http://coppercoat.com/

 

[Rigger Mortice]

On page 18 it says wet sand??

I had to ask someone in the yard to stop dry sanding a couple of years ago. He did stop immediatly being new to the 'game' he was unaware of the dangers.
I use a green abrasive pad with a hose pipe to keep the surface wet so I get rid of a lot of the build-up of antifoul at the beginning of each season, before I put the new antifoul on.
However, the old antifoul is simply washed onto the boatyard ground probably doing environmental damage. What is the answer to preventing this other than to do it dry with vacuum attached? Where would you then get rid of the dust?

Are we looking at the same thing? On mine it says that you should wet sand (page 28), but on page 13 it says "do not wet sand". I assumed that page 13 was a typo (Ox-Eng dictionary; "typo" a euphemism for "somebody didn't do their job and check it properly")

 

[Bosun Higgs]

Are there many idiots dry sanding anti fouling where you are or is it just my yard.
I seems a epidemic of Aldi/Liddl electric sanders has brought out the hibernators in my area. In a effort to catch up they merrily sand for hours on end.They wear cheap face masks and don't bother about anyone else.
Is it just me or does the panel think it is the norm and we should accept the associated risks.

What risks? I did just that once and got a bit of a cough the following day. Went to the doc, he rang up the poisons register and told me that there was nothing in antifoul that was dangerous if sanded. That was maybe 10 years ago which tends to suggest he was right. Mind you antifoul could have changed since then

 

[kengill]

Hardly - the paper concerned does not claim that the metals investigated are carcinogenic. The biotoxins that you mentioned do included some of the metals that were identified (particularly tin). However, antifouling paints still contain bioavailable metallic compounds, especially copper compounds (if they didn't they wouldn't work). Those metallic compounds can be absorbed from inhaled and ingested dust. They are toxic to humans at the cellular level.

There is no difference between the physical and toxological properties of bioavailable metallic compounds in Malta and in Britain. The only likely difference is the probably more rigorous adherence to safe working practices in UK boatyards.

There is also the wholly separate issue of generating respirable irritant and toxic particles which can be a cause of both acute and chronic respiratory disease, including asthma and pulmonary fibrosis. Individual susceptibility varies greatly and is unpredictable.

You are welcome to continue to argue your point from the perspective of a total ignorance of toxicology. The readers of this thread can follow your advice by generating dust which is known to be toxic (to be inhaled and ingested by themselves and those around them), or they can be on the side of the original poster who correctly referred to those who do so as "idiots".

You might like to reflect on the advice provided by all manufacturers of antifouling paint that dry sanding of their products is dangerous to the health of those doing it and is also a source of environmental pollution. As I am not a lawyer I won't comment on the illegality of failing to contain antifouling waste.

When I wet sand I find that the RCD keeps tripping and it gets difficult to move the belt sander over the surface. It works much better when the sanding belt simply flings the dry powder into the distance.