Are the boat builders selling us short ?

[henryf]

I'm sorry, but that is not right. In cars, the vast majority of the components that you don't see are quite common, even sometimes complete engines are shared. ZF supply the vast majority of auto gearboxes, which are matched to the specific engine and drivability of the car. Most electrical parts have a high degree of commonality. Glass will be unique, as will body panels, except where cars are rebranded, like the Toyota Aygo, Citroen C1 and Peugeot 107. Boats are not much different. They will share powertrains, electrical systems, services etc. The things you see will generally be bespoke.

Yep, only this week we needed a gearbox part which was on back order at Porsche but thankfully on the shelf at Mercedes. Both parts carried identical Mercedes markings.

Henry

 

[Jamesuk]

Yep, only this week we needed a gearbox part which was on back order at Porsche but thankfully on the shelf at Mercedes. Both parts carried identical Mercedes markings.

Henry

So Henry, whats the answer?

By asking the question you have clearly seen a gap in the market.

I would suggest a 'Europarts' for yachts delivered to your door that day for £3.99!!!

 

[Lozzer]

Hi Henry

Having worked in the motorboat industry for 11 years I have always thought it to be a cottage industry managed by individuals who were in the right place at the right time. (A lot of these people in my opinion didn't have the skills to do the job they did).

My original career was in selling high end IT Solutions to SME's so we were very well organised, had great resources, added true value to our clients and we were forward looking to ensure we stayed competitive in our market. I saw none of this in the yachting industry.

As you know I have skippered a Princess 85 yacht that I helped my boss buy. The buying experience was truly awful and had it not been for the salesman and myself the management of PMYS would have blown the deal.

Having said that the service side has always been fair. I could get my local guy to organise haul outs ,engine servicing etc etc if I wanted but this was my job as skipper. I was always able to go into the sales and maintenance offices and get a warm welcome no matter what office UK or Spain.

I recently had a coffee with Pete H in Swanick, mentioned I was looking for something and hey presto he handed me two. He also outlined some improvements they had made which sounded good to me. People should not feel bad about asking questions of the manufacturer they are happy to help. If you ask them to organise and manage stuff then be prepared to pay else don't ask.

Now that my boss has bought an Oyster sailing yacht I will get to see a different side of the UK boat industry. All the dealings so far have been way beyond our expectations from the purchase to the ongoing build. Our project build manager is always on hand to answer any question and give loads of advice. A refreshing thing is that they will not sell you anything if they don't believe it will add value or will be difficult to maintain in the field.

There is room for improvement in the MB industry and it will come but the wait is excruciating. Our new boat arrives in a year so will be some time before I know what the ongoing service in sailing industry will be.

 

[henryf]

Part of your added value to the owner is arranging everything as and when it needs doing, so in that instance an owner probably wouldn't see any benefit. You would though and that might have a bearing on where the next boat comes from. Owner is looking at a couple of manufacturers, you know one of them is a dream when it comes to on going work so it makes your job a lot easier to steer the owner in that direction.

It's interesting that you mention Peter H from Swanwick. He is indeed the one shining light. A font of all knowledge, able to magic bits up from his secret stash and a genuinely nice guy. The problem is as jam he is spread too thinly and I feel guilty asking him for stuff. I see him as the warranty guy rather than the on-going routine maintenance guy.

Possibly the new centre in Plymouth will take pressure off Swanwick and allow them to arrange work for boats outside the warranty period.

Henry

 

[Lozzer]

Henry

I have been fortunate enough to assist with the buying of a few boats and the best experience has been buying to order as opposed to off the shelf.

It gives you direct access to the manufacturing team and if you can establish a good working relationship with them you can tap into the fountain of all knowledge. From a Princess perspective I know the after sales guys in the factory from the days I worked there. I also know the Fairline PDI guys having taken delivery of a new Sqdn 78.

The sales and service arms ae just not professional enough at this stage to track and manage all the servicing requirements of their clients it would mean to much pro-activity.

Treat Pete to a regular lunch and you'll get away with murder he's a top bloke and if he can help he will help you.

 

[benjenbav]

If the manufacturers were to train up a team of franchised aftermarket service providers I think they could do well whilst giving owners the reassurance that they were getting the right service levels.

 

[benjenbav]

"Man in a branded van" is what I'm thinking.

 

[benjenbav]

Or, indeed, woman.

In a branded van, that is.

Not a branded ...

 

[Nick_H]

I'm sorry, but that is not right. In cars, the vast majority of the components that you don't see are quite common, even sometimes complete engines are shared. ZF supply the vast majority of auto gearboxes, which are matched to the specific engine and drivability of the car. Most electrical parts have a high degree of commonality. Glass will be unique, as will body panels, except where cars are rebranded, like the Toyota Aygo, Citroen C1 and Peugeot 107. Boats are not much different. They will share powertrains, electrical systems, services etc. The things you see will generally be bespoke.

Really? You don't see any great difference between the way automakers and boatbuilders select the systems they fit to their vehicles? You don't have to look any further than the engines, which probably account for more than half of all maintenance work by themselves. Car makers make them, boat builders buy them off the shelf. Yes, there's examples where car makers collaborate, and some where they buy engines from other brands, but the large majority design and make their own. AFAIK not a single boat builder makes their own engines.

I'm mostly involved with seating, and the big seat makers have been trying for twenty years to push the idea of a standardised seat, but their customers ultimately don't want them. There's lots of commonality of parts of course, and the underlying designs are very similar, but the seats are different.

None the less, maybe I only see a narrow part of the industry, and you have a wider view, so if you're really saying that ZF offer a standard range of gearboxes, and Ford, VW, GM et al select from a catalogue and make them fit their own cars, then you're in a better position to know than I am. I have to say though, it doesn't fit with what I see and hear from my dealings with the car makers where they specify at least the packaging envelope, and the supplier modifies their design to fit, so the assembly becomes specific to one manufacturer.

 

[rafiki_]

Really? You don't see any great difference between the way automakers and boatbuilders select the systems they fit to their vehicles? You don't have to look any further than the engines, which probably account for more than half of all maintenance work by themselves. Car makers make them, boat builders buy them off the shelf. Yes, there's examples where car makers collaborate, and some where they buy engines from other brands, but the large majority design and make their own. AFAIK not a single boat builder makes their own engines.

I'm mostly involved with seating, and the big seat makers have been trying for twenty years to push the idea of a standardised seat, but their customers ultimately don't want them. There's lots of commonality of parts of course, and the underlying designs are very similar, but the seats are different.

None the less, maybe I only see a narrow part of the industry, and you have a wider view, so if you're really saying that ZF offer a standard range of gearboxes, and Ford, VW, GM et al select from a catalogue and make them fit their own cars, then you're in a better position to know than I am. I have to say though, it doesn't fit with what I see and hear from my dealings with the car makers where they specify at least the packaging envelope, and the supplier modifies their design to fit, so the assembly becomes specific to one manufacturer.

Well, I don't want to get into a p!55!ng contest with you, and I have been engineering cars for more years than I care to remember. I have said that the things you see tend to be bespoke to the car, which would include the seat, but the adjusters, electronics, heaters etc will be common. So, perhaps the truck industry is a better analogy for you than cars? Does the after sales work any differently?

 

[petem]

Henry I've just finished restoring a Phantom 38, a 97 year boat and the client wanted the clock rewinding back to better than factory condition.

It was in a bad way and I had an extensive task list. We commissioned replacing covers, upholstery, fitting new teak etc, these were the relatively easy bits.

In order to get the effect and cover the details, all the smaller items of course had to be dealt with; hinges, catches, drawer runners, rubbing strake, window seals, fly table legs, sliding patio door runners, switches, taps... and so on, as you can imagine the list was substantial.
Some, I was able to remove and re-finish (for example the throttles were removed, corrosion dealt with and re-painted) but as you know some things are easier to simply replace with new to save time and restoration costs.

What the client imagined was that I would be able just to go to a "parts' section of Fairline and get all of these items with relative ease. I have to say I completely agreed with him, it would have certainly made life a little easier.
As helpful and important to the process as Heather was (EBY at the time) I had to source nearly all parts from possibly over 20 different suppliers in this country and others for availability or to be thrifty on my clients behalf.

I couldn't help but think there was a glaring gap and indeed a missed trick, but is there good a reason for this?

Sounds like an interesting project. Got any pics?

I've a list of Fairline OEM suppliers on my web site. If you've discovered any that aren't on my list could you let me know?

http://www.fairlineownersclub.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1395

Pete

 

[Marine Reflections]

Pete, that's a comprehensive list of suppliers you have there, I do have a few suppliers to add for you that offered good service but the main ones you have covered. Will go through the my list and send you a PM to add.

Have some pics of this project yes, hundreds!! and video footage, In fact I'm putting all the footage together as I write, some 20GB needs to be honed down into a before and after video and popped on a disc for my client.
I'd pop it on here but video is miles from being finished and I don't want to p Henry off by drifting too much. No doubt my client will join the Fairline Owners Club and start his own thread there, I wouldn't want to spoil that for him, so best I check it's ok first.

Good to see Richard has advertised with you, he took over the Fairline dealership just after we received all the 'Fairline' parts we needed. I'm sure they will exceed expectations on both the sales and the supply of parts as they have a great reputation for doing just that with their other brands. They have some big shoes to fill though as Heather's a guru and even the smaller orders like mine were treated as 1st class.

Tina from Trend was brilliant, lots of parts from them, where the rubbing strake had shrunk over the years rather than replace the whole lot (we'd need to buy a minimum of 40m) she sent us a 'sample' so I could simply weld the missing inches in to the stern.
Managed to replace all the window rubbers for under £20 from Trend which made me laugh considering the difference it made against the old ones.
I'm still after some bits, for example - instead of the higher and lower legs for the fly table, we'd like to have the one set that adjusts, still searching. Had to re-position the table from factory position however as it didn't sit properly when in lower position.
Managed to find some nice alloy leg supports for the table, they make a huge difference over the stock plastic ones.

The perspex drinks holder on the forward deck I suspect wasn't held in stock by Fairline and they had it made, for the price I should have made it myself., wasn't happy and had to fettle with it so much, making it myself would have been far easier.

Raised stainless lettering on the stern had some interesting quotes, one came in at £1270 +vat for 16 letters!!

EBAY was a surprisingly good source, found all the identical drawer runners for the galley and push button catches for the lockers for a fraction of the price anyone else could supply for.

I would however expect to be able to buy all new items for boats no matter what age the part (within reason), I can source them (eventually) so why not the room for a Euro marine parts like someone suggested earlier?


On the servicing side of this thread - even from my position as an improver/ fettler, I've understood many issues on various boats that I've had to learn, many how to's and more importantly the reason something has happened in order to stop it happening again. Ultimately as Henry states - it's the client that pays for this learning curve and it only benefits my next client with the same issue. If there was some sort of portal that I could report to, explain the issue and a step by step process that would be great.
It's not unless someone pops a question on here and asks - why are the side arches of my V42 tanking up with water? that anyone with any experience of the same issue can help.

I guess if all the problems were solved and solutions made readily available, it wouldn't go down well with many who solved them in the first place. Most 'solvers' I doubt were the factory, when they fitted it or whatever the system /design seemed fine to them.

I'm out of my depth here in knowledge but I suspect the likes of Landau UK are able to fit air con and upgrade the genny or rewire a system for example with ease, 1, because they have done so before many times, but 2 because they are privvy to certain information from the manufacturer, I'm sure that information isn't available to everyone, but that hurts the owner if he decides to fit air con and go with Joe Bloggs engineering.

 

[rubberduck]

"Man in a branded van" is what I'm thinking.

+1
Win win. Man in van is seen as better than the rest, & doesn't have to limit himself to that brand, in return for not having exclusivity in a given area (but limit it to sustainable levels)
Boat brand has better after sales & low costs.

 

[petem]

Raised stainless lettering on the stern had some interesting quotes, one came in at £1270 +vat for 16 letters!!

Eeek, that's expensive. I'm in the process of setting up a service offering custom stainless lettering and would be happy to give you a quote (at cost in return for a testimonial and some pics of the finished job). Indeed, my first customer is a fellow forumite, watch this space!

If your client has had the job done already would you be able to PM me the details (job details, supplier and price paid) so that I can use this for some benchmarking?

Pete

 

[henryf]

One of the big plus points for the manufacturer / dealer is they have very good knowledge of the boats which makes taking them into stock a good deal easier. It's a win win because the buyer feels less of an us and them scenario - very much the case at the moment with all the paperwork signing your life away, surveys, etc.. There's more of a feeling that the dealer is with you all the way into the future.

As has been said on another thread the reality is that in my case (Princess Swanwick) there is advice and they do step in when things go wrong. I know of an engine which had major repair work carried out courtesy of the manufacturer thanks in no small part to the intervention of Peter H (that name again) at Princess. So it's nt that there is a closed door, there just isn't an avenue for owners who want to arrange everything through a single source thus avoiding repeated trips down to the boat to brief people, check work, follow up problems etc..

Henry

 

[Lozzer]

How much are people prepared to pay for the manufacturer providing a one stop shop and by that I mean.

Berthing, engine servicing, generator servicing, lift out, anti fouling, polishing, cleaning, running up of engines during winter, turning sea cocks etc etc.

Would people be prepared to pay say a 15-20% premium on invoices for someone to organise and manage the work?

Then on Gardienage are you talking £20 per hour. If people would then there is probably a market for the sales organisation. Knowing many yacht owners I don't think they would be prepared to pay that sort of premium.

When having a coffee with Pete H the other day he told me that they were now selling technical services for post sales / warranty work. If you call them and ask if they can help do out of warranty work they will be happy to get stuck in Im sure.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Would people be prepared to pay say a 15-20% premium on invoices for someone to organise and manage the work?

In my case, definitely yes. I don't have the time or inclination to faff around finding individual specialists to do individual jobs on my boat. What I want to be able to do at the end of every trip is to send a single email with a list of outstanding maintenance jobs to a single person and know that by the time I get to my boat for my next trip, those jobs have been efficiently and competently completed. Actually having accidentally become a bit of a Med boating nomad in the last few years, one of the first things I do when I roll up in a new marina for a few months is to find just such a person or organisation who can manage all the jobs on my boat. If Ferretti contacted me and said they were starting up just such a service for their owners, I'd be the first to try it. But it does all hang on 3 things, firstly that the communication between the point of contact and me is timely and detailed, secondly that the jobs are carried out competently and thirdly, whilst I'm willing to pay a premium for the service, I'm not willing to be ripped off for it

For me, boating is about minimising the hassle in order to maximise the enjoyment and I'm willing to pay extra to ensure that

 

[BartW]

But it does all hang on 3 things, firstly that the communication between the point of contact and me is timely and detailed, secondly that the jobs are carried out competently and thirdly, whilst I'm willing to pay a premium for the service, I'm not willing to be ripped off for it

and thats the difficulty !

Ferretti, nor Princes, nor Failine, nor Sunseeker have enough boats fe in Porto Montenegro to offer that service,
so
you'r left with the local general service co's

one of them is chasing all new arrivals and offer that kind of gardinage service,
but I got to know from my neighbours that non of the older berthholders want to work with them anymore because they are untrustworthy,
I hear horror story's about equipment taken from boats, even if only half of it is true, its delirious.
so they have a very bad score on point 2 and 3

Apparantly I have chosen the "good" and "honest" guy for my MAN engine repair,
he promisses too much on everybody, so delay times is his problem,
he has a bad score on point one.

I had another guy, who offered himself for cleaning the boat,
I proposed to pay him per hour, but he insisted to be payed for the project, cleaning the complete outside of the boat would cost 300 euro,
I think he got that price from the pro's, and for them I think that price is correct if they bring their tools and their soap,
but the guy brought nothing and didn't even now how to fix a gardena hose connection
he worked a day and a half very hard, but the work was not excellent,
and knowing that the everage monthly salary is about 500 euro, He's a bit too greedy, and I'll never asc him anymore


having all this organised and or supervised by the boat manufacturer, would probably be more a garanty for quality service,
but I'm afraid that soon you get in to that, prices will be much more than 15 to 20% more than the normal price...

 

[benjenbav]

The question of a premium price for a one-stop service is one of which I have some experience having berthed my last boat at Berthon for five years or so. That was essentially the deal there and the berthing contract was very much geared to keep independents out of the marina. I liked the ability to mail through a list of things needing fixing and know they would be done properly and the boat would be treated respectfully and left tidy. I was always aware that the pricing reflected the overheads not carried by independents (principally staff, including apprentices).

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Ferretti, nor Princes, nor Failine, nor Sunseeker have enough boats fe in Porto Montenegro to offer that service
horror story's about equipment taken from boats, even if only half of it is true, its delirious.

I'm disappointed to hear that. I thought PM was being sold as a full service marina. What do the superyacht owners do?

I proposed to pay him per hour, but he insisted to be payed for the project, cleaning the complete outside of the boat would cost 300 euro,

Thats ridiculous. Even in the Costa Smerelda I was paying €300 to clean my boat both inside and outside and they did a good job

but I'm afraid that soon you get in to that, prices will be much more than 15 to 20% more than the normal price...

I guess you're probably right