Are the boat builders selling us short ?

[jrudge]

Henry

You make some good points but I do get the impression that you are creating a problem where none exists.

Rams. I wanted some for my no longer in production Fairline Targa 40. The rams had a manufacturer and serial number on the side. I sent them an email ( I would do exactly the same for a car part that was a simple user replacement). They replied Fairline exclusive. Not wild but whatever. Emailed the Fairline parts chap. Sure it is a xxx, I have it in stock, we deliver worldwide within the price just order it via your dealer. Which I did.

Jimmy the builder got a new pram cover frame in the same way.

I cant speak for Princess, but Fairline do this. Fairline also look after my boat in Cala Dor. If there is something wrong with the very large and very expensive CAT engines ... they call CAT which is exactly what I want them to do!

So whilst I agree that things could probably be better, what problem are you actually seeking to solve, or is this just a Princess brand issue?

Could Fairline write a better user manual ( from someone who reads all manuals - yes - my wife would tell you to stop wasting your time - she just asks me!). But do they support their product, including old products ( upto a point I am sure) and can they be contacted ( or their dealer) to ask how to - where to - again yes.

I used to have Cranchi. Needed to march Corian. Emailed the factory, they emailed me back with the spec. So it is not unique to Fairline.

Improvement - always - but lets not make a mountain out of a mole hill.

 

[rubberduck]

What is to stop a company from telling a marina they are going to be there on such a date, to service all the Princess, or Fairline or whoever boats at a discount for that day, week etc. Two things, the marina may have a closed shop, & the companies want to charge full price & just work on one or two boats. Its simply not good enough, & everyone would benefit throughout the industry & owners if someone got their arse into gear & did it. Also closed shops don't work any more, I & many others left Burnham on crouch for that very reason, a great marina now doing try it for free to get more custom, crazy.

 

[aquapower]

So who do you think makes the seats, instruments, wiring harness, gearbox, suspension, carpet, lights, a/c, ice, electronic controllers (60+), wheels/tyres, folding roofs, front and rear fenders, turbo's, injectors, hoses, pipes, brakes, pedal box, soft trim, etc etc etc There are some 20,000 parts on a car, about 400 of these go together on the final assembly line, the rest are bought in.
What is the difference to the boat industry?

The big difference here is that the automotive parts are model/manufactuter specific and made by a company that supplies the manufacturer of the vehicle, they wouldn't be interested in supplying a one off to retail customer. Most boat parts are available to anyone online or in the chandlery, which end user can buy themselves to cut out the boat repairer, that's why they don't carry loads of stock as its just not worth it.

 

[Nick_H]

So who do you think makes the seats, instruments, wiring harness, gearbox, suspension, carpet, lights, a/c, ice, electronic controllers (60+), wheels/tyres, folding roofs, front and rear fenders, turbo's, injectors, hoses, pipes, brakes, pedal box, soft trim, etc etc etc There are some 20,000 parts on a car, about 400 of these go together on the final assembly line, the rest are bought in.
What is the difference to the boat industry?

Of those 20,000 parts, how many are truly proprietary items? The tyres maybe, and that's about it. The rest, as you know, are made specifically for one car maker, usually from completely independent tooling, and often with significant variations in design and assembly. Boats, on the other hand, are made from parts from a catalogue. Sure, the manufacturers get a better deal because they buy 20 at a time, but very few bought in parts are made specifically for one manufacturer, and even if they are it's usually simple changes like the length of a gas strut that is hardly going to confuse a non-franchised engineer.

So, the need to have an engineer trained by the boat builder is less important, but the cost of getting him to the right place is much higher, because the volume of customers doesn't justify a Princess service centre in every port. As a result, the balance shifts towards generalist service centres located more locally, which is what we have.

 

[Jamesuk]

I think, questions like:

What happens if struck by lightning: what do Princess do?

If i run aground, what do Princess do for repairs? Etc would rank high on my list

 

[rafiki_]

Of those 20,000 parts, how many are truly proprietary items? The tyres maybe, and that's about it. The rest, as you know, are made specifically for one car maker, usually from completely independent tooling, and often with significant variations in design and assembly. Boats, on the other hand, are made from parts from a catalogue. Sure, the manufacturers get a better deal because they buy 20 at a time, but very few bought in parts are made specifically for one manufacturer, and even if they are it's usually simple changes like the length of a gas strut that is hardly going to confuse a non-franchised engineer.

So, the need to have an engineer trained by the boat builder is less important, but the cost of getting him to the right place is much higher, because the volume of customers doesn't justify a Princess service centre in every port. As a result, the balance shifts towards generalist service centres located more locally, which is what we have.

Sorry, I don't really understand this point. The bits you see are proprietary, many of those you don't, are not. The tyres most definitely are proprietary for premium cars.

 

[Princess52]

Henry, you may have received the attached magazine article http://issuu.com/princessmotoryachtsales/docs/my_princess_issue_8 . I have had too many issues on my new v52 but Perhaps this is a solution? Page 30.

 

[henryf]

So, the need to have an engineer trained by the boat builder is less important, but the cost of getting him to the right place is much higher, because the volume of customers doesn't justify a Princess service centre in every port. As a result, the balance shifts towards generalist service centres located more locally, which is what we have.

My gas strut is not the problem. It takes 30 seconds to change and is easy to identify. Where it gets harder is changing the electric window motor that has no obvious access. It will take far longer than 25 minutes in a van for your general service centre to even begin to decide how best to tackle the problem, the manufacturers engineer will know exactly what to do having done it a dozen times before and have the part in his van. Deciding why the window washer wasn't working took Princess about 3 minutes, apparently the part could have been located in one of 2 places. You would never have known where to look.

I learnt very early on that using cheaper non specialist servicing, paying their learning curve and unnecessary parts was far more expensive than using a more expensive specialist.

You haven't commented on my suggestion that taking responsibility for boats beyond the warranty period will improve the brand.

Foreign dealers are interesting in that language often precludes owners using third party suppliers directly. Then there is the question of distance.


Henry

 

[henryf]

Henry, you may have received the attached magazine article http://issuu.com/princessmotoryachtsales/docs/my_princess_issue_8 . I have had too many issues on my new v52 but Perhaps this is a solution? Page 30.

Yes, I saw that the other day. I like the sentiment and welcome the promise of service capability. Forgive me if I'm not jumping for joy just yet having heard the promises for quite some time now.

I suspect the Turnchapel site is more aimed at factory quality control / PDI work as PMYS take delivery from the factory. If it is intended for customer service work it's in the wrong place. It would work well for projects like JFM's hard top project. What it might do is take pressure off Swanwick and allow them to concentrate on delivering on going service beyond warranty periods.

Henry

 

[gjgm]

My gas strut is not the problem. It takes 30 seconds to change and is easy to identify. Where it gets harder is changing the electric window motor that has no obvious access. It will take far longer than 25 minutes in a van for your general service centre to even begin to decide how best to tackle the problem, the manufacturers engineer will know exactly what to do having done it a dozen times before and have the part in his van. Deciding why the window washer wasn't working took Princess about 3 minutes, apparently the part could have been located in one of 2 places. You would never have known where to look.

I learnt very early on that using cheaper non specialist servicing, paying their learning curve and unnecessary parts was far more expensive than using a more expensive specialist.

You haven't commented on my suggestion that taking responsibility for boats beyond the warranty period will improve the brand.

Foreign dealers are interesting in that language often precludes owners using third party suppliers directly. Then there is the question of distance.


Henry

So, if you or someone phones Princess and says where the hell is the access to this motor, they will not tell you? I really cannot see why you need someone in Princess overalls; you just need some info from Princess as to how they put the boat together.

 

[Cheery]

Essentially, if manufacturers were continually having to fix the same problems with difficult access the problems would be designed out. Couple that with removing the 'closed shop' nature of parts suppliers unwilling to supply owners direct and life becomes much simpler. Or have I got it wrong?

 

[Wavey]

I have used Brooms for a few jobs on my boat. If the service was available I'd use them for everything, including engine servicing. Having been maintained by the builder I think makes for a good selling point, and they also then have a full history of the boat from new which would be a benefit for future owners.

They also built it which means certain jobs take considerably less time than engaging someone else who isn't familiar with that model. If it's a whatsit that's failed then they turn up with exactly the bits you need and the problem gets fixed there and then. When I had a wiper problem the "specialist" a local firm recommended made two trips to the boat to work out what the problem was before he even got around to ordering the bits. In the end it took far longer and cost more than if Brooms had done it.

Brooms however are a small manufacturer compared to the likes of Princess and Fairline and therein lies the problem. They don't have the ability to support the type of service I would like from them. More recently they seem reluctant to provide services remotely. When I rang them towards the end of last year about some work their solution was to return the boat to Brundall which as I'm based in the Solent made no sense at all. Pity really as that was completely at odds with Mark Garner's address to the owners club last year about servicing owners boats.

 

[Nick_H]

Sorry, I don't really understand this point. The bits you see are proprietary, many of those you don't, are not. The tyres most definitely are proprietary for premium cars.

What I mean is that Princess, Fairline, Sunseeker etc. fit exactly the same generator, air con units, toilet systems, calorifier, windlass, radar, water pumps, etc., because the suppliers design and market end products, and the boat builders essentially choose them from a catalogue. I was using the term "proprietary" to refer to this, but maybe that's not the correct use of the term.

In contrast, virtually none of the bought in parts on a Mondeo is chosen from a catalogue, everything is either designed by Ford and made under contract, or even if the supplier is design responsible it's still made to Ford's specific requirements and packaging limitations, and wont be sold to anyone else.

As a result there's a big benefit to having a Ford trained engineer do complex work on your Mondeo, even if that means some extra hassle of taking your car to a dealer 40 mins away, rather than using the independent garage on the corner. Where there isn't that need for Ford specific knowledge, like changing the tyres, batteries or exhaust, most people choose to use Kwik Fit or such like.

I think there's very few instances where you need specific knowledge of a particular boatbuilder brand to fix something on their boats, because the thing you're fixing will be identical to the one on lots of other boat brands. For the odd occasions you do, you need technical support to be available by phone or e-mail, which is what the boat builders and/or dealers try to provide, though they could do better.

What you do need as a boat owner is someone local who can come and look at a problem quickly, rather than having to call a franchised service centre 50 miles away and book an appointment for next week.

 

[P4Paul]

Great thread Henry.

I am completely in agreement that there is a whole trick being missed by the manufacturers both in terms of long term value stream from continued customer relations and in enhanced product development.

Do I think it will change in a hurry, well the answer is no because the manufacturers and the main dealers are either not realising the opportunity or just not feeling the pain of not providing or investing in this area and the reality is that offering an industry game changer such as this will not deliver quick profit.

I used to work years ago for a John Deere main dealer when the brand was still developing in the UK. JD spent a huge amount on the development of service technician training and parts supply for two reasons. The rectification of any mechanical or hydraulic failure was diagnosed quickly and repaired professionally with parts either off the shelf or delivered overnight, therefore making even major issues seem like small blips and secondly, and equally important, the service technicians were a hugely rich source of product information that when analysed with the parts usage and warranty returns gave an amazing insight into areas for improvement and design requirements of the next generation of product. Now JD are seen as top dog in a very price concious and aggressive market, but it took twenty years of determination to deliver the vision.

OK, so I get that volumes and drivers in my example above are different, but my point was; it only takes one organisation to have the vision and then the determination to invest to deliver a new way of thinking and working to influence a whole industry. We all can think of a good reason why it wouldn't work, hourly rate too high, not based close enough, travelling time is charged, etc, etc but bizarrely our 'man maths' can make buying a hugely expensive and depreciating asset seem like a real clever financial investment.

Like any other industry, there are local service outlets who are capable of offering a service, they will always exist and be there to support those who don't want to use the main dealer offering. Does that mean the dealer network shouldn't offer a service solution? Of course not, but it does mean the dealer network has to offer something bigger, smarter, better, quicker to justify the likely higher cost.

In five years time we will look back at this thread and discuss why it took so long for the customer to drive the industry to wake up and offer a credible and professional service centre solution.

 

[Nautical]

Apologies haven't read all the thread but as I gather some have mentioned trying to provide a similar service to the auto industry is difficult. A) yacht building co turnover is just paltry compared to the auto industry, in most cases less than 100m quid compared to billions for say BMW or Merc so to put the infrastructure/staffing in place to provide a similar service for each builder is just cost prohibitive, keep in mind most builders are working on very small profit compared to T/O, a search of public accounts will tell you even the biggest are not making more than 3%-4% nett. When we say wow that yacht cost $15m, jeez they must be raking it in, in reality when you see the bottom line the margin isn't terribly exciting. Anyone will tell you from the investment $ industry , investing in a boat builder is A) high risk, B) bar a few exceptions poor return compared to most others. Those that do are buying a luxury brand for other reasons than monetary return. While not directly relevant to the discussion it does indicate the risk of throwing $m's at a complete one stop shop after sales facility for a product line that has literally tens of thousands of parts for a line of only a few hundred finished goods.

There are such variables in boat building, models , spec , customisation, very small runs of a model , margins etc it would be a logistical/cost nightmare to provide an "on demand" "off the shelf" and "one stop shop" for all aftersales and maintainence. It will always have to be a collaboration between the owner, the builder and the supplying component manufacturers. Of course some builders manage this relationship better than others, some are great and some are just pants.

Having said all the above there are ways to mitigate some of the headaches, ergo, (hate to say it as sounds salesman etc) Outer Reef for example were the first to label all major components on the yacht with a QR code, this is linked to the onboard supplied iPad which holds every manual and parts catalogue for everything installed on your yacht, you just point it at the part you are looking at (filter, fuel polisher, battery whatever) and the manual and parts list appears immediately on the screen. The iPad is also provided with the full Wheelhouse tech maintenance support program which is live to the main office of WHT . From your iPad you can order all the parts you need and they will be delivered direct to the boat (no matter where in the world you are). Secondly you can send a "Service schedule request" via the app / iPad detailing your next passage (in our case often 1000nm or more) and the main office will send you back a list of service parts that you will require during that period. As long as you keep the log up to date they have all the information needed to alert you the various service items and consumables you will need over the next 100 hrs, 500 hrs or whatever.

 

[admillington]

Apologies haven't read all the thread but as I gather some have mentioned trying to provide a similar service to the auto industry is difficult. A) yacht building co turnover is just paltry compared to the auto industry, in most cases less than 100m quid compared to billions for say BMW or Merc so to put the infrastructure/staffing in place to provide a similar service for each builder is just cost prohibitive, keep in mind most builders are working on very small profit compared to T/O, a search of public accounts will tell you even the biggest are not making more than 3%-4% nett. When we say wow that yacht cost $15m, jeez they must be raking it in, in reality when you see the bottom line the margin isn't terribly exciting. Anyone will tell you from the investment $ industry , investing in a boat builder is A) high risk, B) bar a few exceptions poor return compared to most others. Those that do are buying a luxury brand for other reasons than monetary return. While not relevant to the discussion it does indicate the risk of throwing $m's at a complete one stop shop after sales facility for a product line that has literally tens of thousands of parts for a line of only a few hundred finished goods.

There are such variables in boat building, models , spec , customisation, very small runs of a model , margins etc it would be a logistical/cost nightmare to provide an "on demand" "off the shelf" and "one stop shop" for all aftersales and maintainence. It will always have to be a collaboration between the owner, the builder and the supplying component manufacturers. Of course some builders manage this relationship better than others, some are great and some are just pants.

Having said all the above there are ways to mitigate some of the headaches, ergo, (hate to say it as sounds salesman etc) ORY for example were the first to label all major components on the yacht with a QR code, this is linked to the onboard supplied iPad which holds every manual and parts catalogue for everything installed on your yacht, you just point it at the part you are looking at (filter, fuel polisher, battery whatever) and the manual and parts list appears immediately on the screen. The iPad is also provided with the full Wheelhouse tech maintenance support program which is live to the main office of WHT . From your iPad you can order all the parts you need and they will be delivered direct to the boat (no matter where in the world you are). Secondly you can send a "Service schedule request" via the app / iPad detailing your next passage (in our case often 1000nm or more) and the main office will send you back a list of service parts that you will require during that period. As long as you keep the log up to date they have all the information needed to alert you the various service items and consumables you will need over the next 100 hrs, 500 hrs or whatever.

What a great use of technology!.

I have created a simple version of this using Dropbox and spending a rainy Sunday, downloading or scanning the manuals for the all the equipment on the boat.

This alongside having a top class shipyard next to the boat makes for easy boating. Nothing is too much trouble for Berthon and the costs are not unreasonable.

-Andrew

 

[henryf]

Great thread Henry.

You are truly an amazing man, I can only assume you have Cornish ancestry.

I am in the John Deere fan club

Well thank you for the kind words

On a serious note you confirm what I have always thought to be the case in terms of feedback. Not just as it leaves the factory gates but 3, 5, 10 even 15 years down the line.

I would love to see one of the big 3 taking on challenges along the lines of Flemming, Nordhaven or the daddy of them all FPB. As I start to think about longer term cruising you find yourself moving away from the big 3 but it shouldn't have to be that way.

Within the traditional use of the big 3's boats surely it should be about ease for the customer. The lifestyle promised in all the promotional material seems at odds with the reality of scraping away at barnacles.

I've just finished changing the seals on my JD 1640 load sensing shaft as well as fitting a new exhaust box. Green is the future

Henry

 

[P4Paul]

Well thank you for the kind words

And for opening my eyes to the history of the Cornish pasty, I now admit that pies are so 2014...

I've just finished changing the seals on my JD 1640 load sensing shaft as well as fitting a new exhaust box. Green is the future

Henry

Ahh the joys of lower link sensing, were you brave and did it side by side without draining the oil or did you play it safe?

A real step forward from upper link sensing, right up until you hit something rigid with the mounted implement and snap the end off the sensing shaft. Grass takes a long time to grow back after being burnt by hot oil.

 

[rafiki_]

What I mean is that Princess, Fairline, Sunseeker etc. fit exactly the same generator, air con units, toilet systems, calorifier, windlass, radar, water pumps, etc., because the suppliers design and market end products, and the boat builders essentially choose them from a catalogue. I was using the term "proprietary" to refer to this, but maybe that's not the correct use of the term.

In contrast, virtually none of the bought in parts on a Mondeo is chosen from a catalogue, everything is either designed by Ford and made under contract, or even if the supplier is design responsible it's still made to Ford's specific requirements and packaging limitations, and wont be sold to anyone else.

As a result there's a big benefit to having a Ford trained engineer do complex work on your Mondeo, even if that means some extra hassle of taking your car to a dealer 40 mins away, rather than using the independent garage on the corner. Where there isn't that need for Ford specific knowledge, like changing the tyres, batteries or exhaust, most people choose to use Kwik Fit or such like.

I think there's very few instances where you need specific knowledge of a particular boatbuilder brand to fix something on their boats, because the thing you're fixing will be identical to the one on lots of other boat brands. For the odd occasions you do, you need technical support to be available by phone or e-mail, which is what the boat builders and/or dealers try to provide, though they could do better.

What you do need as a boat owner is someone local who can come and look at a problem quickly, rather than having to call a franchised service centre 50 miles away and book an appointment for next week.

I'm sorry, but that is not right. In cars, the vast majority of the components that you don't see are quite common, even sometimes complete engines are shared. ZF supply the vast majority of auto gearboxes, which are matched to the specific engine and drivability of the car. Most electrical parts have a high degree of commonality. Glass will be unique, as will body panels, except where cars are rebranded, like the Toyota Aygo, Citroen C1 and Peugeot 107. Boats are not much different. They will share powertrains, electrical systems, services etc. The things you see will generally be bespoke.

 

[henryf]

Ahh the joys of lower link sensing, were you brave and did it side by side without draining the oil or did you play it safe?

A real step forward from upper link sensing, right up until you hit something rigid with the mounted implement and snap the end off the sensing shaft. Grass takes a long time to grow back after being burnt by hot oil.

Drained the oil. One of the benefits of the Euro enforced 20 ltr max drum to protect my meagre muscles is they fit nicely under the shaft

A great little tool coupled to a 9 foot topper. The key is regular servicing, every 10 years whether it needs it or not

Henry