Are the boat builders selling us short ?

[henryf]

I don't know many (any?) car manufacturers that come to you to service your car. You have to take your car to them.

If the dealerships had to go out to your home I suspect they also wouldn't bother.

Also, you mention getting the manufacturers 'engineer' is the best option. Well that isn't princess. It's volvo, or MTU or cruise air or webasto ETC. How can one engineer be a specialist in all third party systems, many complex.

The analogy with cars simply doesn't work. Boats are to complex to offer a 1 stop shop and the market to fragmented to offer an efficient service.

The only place I agree with you is centralised parts supply.

We don't post our boiler back to Worcester, they come to us and at £1,500 new it was a lot cheaper than the boat !

You have misinterpreted my comments. In the case of engines I am not suggesting Princess or Sunseeker bypass the engine builders techies. I have already said they will book them to do the jobs and then the 2 of them can argue any warranty liabilities between themselves. I had a situation where CAT said it was a boat builder issue, Princess disagreed and so I was left to get my hands dirty. Nothing life threatening, loose bolts on an exhaust but very messy!

I'm also not suggesting Princess techies do every job, I've already said Princess or the other builders will know the best people to use. I get the job done once, they get it done hundreds of times so can monitor suppliers and choose accordingly.

Where manufacturer techies come into their own is on all the framework / installation work. They know where to get a roof control module or a TV lift module, a window motor, even a wiper blade. I can believe how hard it was to track down wiper blades for our boat !

Henry

 

[henryf]

I think what you need is an app!

A powerful app that incorporates all the manuals for your boat which is exclusive to your boat into a troubleshooting guide which ends with a part being ordered direct from the supplier and is delivered with a list of 'authorised' dealers in the area to
Install it.

Start there.

Too much work for too small a volume and the App doesn't generate revenue in the same way a man in a van does.

Henry

 

[Sishoe]

If you look at bavaria's website they are launching something interesting, not an app but apparently all components on new bav's will be fitted with a QR sticker thingy that will link you to product manuals and spares etc, obviously everything will frighteningly expensive, but what do you expect?

 

[admillington]

Something like this -

eFIT - Fleming Information Tablet

All technical documentation is supplied on an Apple iPad. This includes a comprehensive Owner's Manual with system descriptions, schematics, wiring diagrams, product manuals and equipment list. This data can be updated automatically from our server. The iPad also contains many useful Apps including back-up Navionics charts.

I think what you need is an app!

A powerful app that incorporates all the manuals for your boat which is exclusive to your boat into a troubleshooting guide which ends with a part being ordered direct from the supplier and is delivered with a list of 'authorised' dealers in the area to
Install it.

Start there.

 

[rafiki_]

I don't know many (any?) car manufacturers that come to you to service your car. You have to take your car to them.

If the dealerships had to go out to your home I suspect they also wouldn't bother.

Also, you mention getting the manufacturers 'engineer' is the best option. Well that isn't princess. It's volvo, or MTU or cruise air or webasto ETC. How can one engineer be a specialist in all third party systems, many complex.

The analogy with cars simply doesn't work. Boats are to complex to offer a 1 stop shop and the market to fragmented to offer an efficient service.

The only place I agree with you is centralised parts supply.

My BMW Stealer will collect my car and drop off. Not quite what you are saying, and I fully understand the difference. This is not charged, but included within the £120 + VAT service rate. And this is the same Group as PMYS, so where is the cross learning? I fully agree with Henry that Boat dealers have not considered the total customer experience. They do what they do because they can get away with it, but they really ought to sharpen up and consider the through life ownership experience.

 

[gjgm]

they really ought to sharpen up and consider the through life ownership experience.

Maybe that is what they are keen to distance themselves from

 

[jrudge]

From a practical point of view though the manufacturers have dealers.

If you keep your boat as a dealer location then dealer will service it. We are in Cala Dor and Fairline Cala Dor do the work on it ( paid for stuff, not warranty - which they do as well) including lift, foul, polish and so on.

It is a free market and I could choose one of probably 20 suppliers in the area to do the work but they give a good service and know the boat. Price wise they are OK, not the cheapest, but I know them and like them,

However if I were not in a marina with a dealer then I will simply strike up a relationship with someone hopefully recommended on here ( I used Total Marine in Mallorca on my last boat and they were amazing).

The main boating centres will have a dealer, but your boat could be anywhere. The ability to have someone say " actually I am passing, don't have long but I will be there in 15 mins" is pretty useful as opposed to having them travel and come by in however many days.

Re air handlers etc the manufacturers do themselves no favours with their manuals. Mine has I think some 10 pages on light switches, but nothing on common fault finding, air handlers etc.

Also bear in mind that many of us like tinkering with boats. I used to like tinkering with cars, but that is all but impossible now as if you open the engine bay ( on a Boxter you cant event do that) there is almost noting to see.

Maybe I am the minority but I have never really had any issues with any marine engineer I have employed. They just do the job. I do write very clears lists and briefs so maybe that helps?

I do agree that most boat items are fix on fail as opposed to a maintenance regime other than the engines.

 

[henryf]

I think manufacturers have to do a bit better than only covering the marina they are based in but at least you have a solution which works for you.

Thinking about it it's amazing really. We all take for granted hauling out, anti-fouling, polishing etc and yet I can think of no other retail product where the new owner is left to sort out such gargantuan tasks. On this forum we represent a small minority of customers with quite good knowledge. We share and pool information, how many folk wandering around the stands at a boat show would have that knowledge ?

It's interesting you mention Flemming because of course that is the other manufacturer who actually uses their product in anger, Tony is currently in Alaska http://www.flemingyachts.com/venture10/index.php

Princess, Fairline and I suspect Sunseeker supply a folder which explains customer facing user controls for the various systems but not repair information. They also leave you with a big suitcase full of ballast from all the third party items fitted like fridges, etc. But it still won't tell you where the roof control box or window wiper control box is and what to do if it goes wrong. As for a window lift motor - I only hope I never need to find out. I dread to think how much stuff gets fitted that can realistically never be accessed again without resorting to saws, hammers, angle grinders and violence.

If you knew you were having to stand to the product long term you would re think the design.

What's interesting is looking at something like JFM's Squadron 78 build. At the moment that boat will probably be the closest you can get to a maintainable craft in our world because the bloke who's got to mend it was involved heavily in the build process. I can't express how strongly I feel that if building, maintaining and mending were all grouped together we would see a huge culture shift resulting in vastly improved products.

I was discussing an inaccessible service item once with a manufacturer. Their response left me stunned - they've always been like that. Of course the truth of it was they never had to deal with the problem, it was down to the owner to sort out even if that meant cutting a hole in the side of the boat.

Although I make a lot of reference to Princess in these posts please do not see them as being more or less guilty than anyone else. I just happen to own a Princess and think they sell enough volume to be able to come up with a workable solution.


Henry

 

[jrudge]

I don't think it is ( in the case of mallorca where there are 3 dealers) that i could not get service in any marina on the Island, but that if I did this I would probably pay travel and probably get a worse service as there would be a longer lead time to them arriving on site.

If it as warranty I issue then this is absolutely the case they travel to wherever i am, but for run of the mill stuff I would probably not be willing to pay / wait.

The user manual is poor and the lack of troubleshooting info etc poor. Even basic things like the shore power has gone off has a trail of shore breakers, main inlet breaker, secondary inlet breaker - on isolation transformer - distribution panels x 2 - which I know welt it really should be in the manual! A car is not perfect in this regard but does seem to tell you more. It still won't tell you where the parking sensor control box is so I think there is a need for realism! Cars have plenty of inaccessible bits. On a DB9 to replace the wiper motor you until recently had to remove the engine! ( someone invented a tool and process to stop that...)

Re gargantuan task of antifouling ... is it really that big. You phone up, hi boat needs lifting, antifouling polishing anodes done and putting back on the berth. You get the quote, gasp and say OK. It is not really a big deal and my involvement is paying the bill.

You are in the Uk and other than a few odd occasions I have never kept a boat here. Maybe it is the med as this is better geared for it, but there a no end of companies to call and make everything there problem ( for a fee). Certainly i would not expect to arrange the boat being moved, the boat being lifted, the boat being fouled, order replacement anodes, blah blah. That is what they are there for! Yes I may leave the bits on board if i can get them cheaper ( anodes in particular) but this is for my convenience - saving money!

Could they do better, probably, could they get more or out money, probably, but to what extent do they wade in and solve a problem that already has a solution. They absolutely should have a helpline " I need to find the roof control bus - where is it" but in Fairness to Fairline they already to that. You mail your nominated factory contact (new boat I accept) and they mail you back ( most of the time!).

 

[henryf]

By "gargantuan task" I was writing through the eyes of someone who has just taken delivery of their first boat. You know where to get the boat lifted, I know where to get the boat lifted but the fact individual dealers don't have a menu priced facility is staggering.

Aston Martin wouldn't be someone I would champion as a shining example. They have been hand build in a very similar way to boats and owners will attest to the problems that causes. I can think of a friend quoted £5,000 to replace damaged (chaffed) wiring on a car bought new and serviced by the factory.

Needless to say it ended up being done free of charge.

I think it all stems from not wanting to take ownership or responsibility. Your independent engineer tells you something was fitted badly at the factory then quotes you for repair, it's not his fault. A manufacturer's engineer doesn't have that luxury. They could lie and possibly get away with it but ultimately it wouldn't take too many free jobs or approaches to the factory to cover the repair before it was ironed out during the build process.

Automotive main dealers have their time covered by the factory for warranty repairs. I have a sneaking suspicion that isn't always the case with boats.


Henry

 

[Marine Reflections]

So what do you guys think? It isn't just Princess, I think all the manufacturers are missing a trick. Car manufacturers make more money selling parts than they do selling cars and the service side of the business usually covers the entire operating costs for the whole outfit.

It's an odd situation.

Henry [/QUOTE]

Henry I've just finished restoring a Phantom 38, a 97 year boat and the client wanted the clock rewinding back to better than factory condition.

It was in a bad way and I had an extensive task list. We commissioned replacing covers, upholstery, fitting new teak etc, these were the relatively easy bits.

In order to get the effect and cover the details, all the smaller items of course had to be dealt with; hinges, catches, drawer runners, rubbing strake, window seals, fly table legs, sliding patio door runners, switches, taps... and so on, as you can imagine the list was substantial.
Some, I was able to remove and re-finish (for example the throttles were removed, corrosion dealt with and re-painted) but as you know some things are easier to simply replace with new to save time and restoration costs.

What the client imagined was that I would be able just to go to a "parts' section of Fairline and get all of these items with relative ease. I have to say I completely agreed with him, it would have certainly made life a little easier.
As helpful and important to the process as Heather was (EBY at the time) I had to source nearly all parts from possibly over 20 different suppliers in this country and others for availability or to be thrifty on my clients behalf.

I couldn't help but think there was a glaring gap and indeed a missed trick, but is there good a reason for this?

 

[henryf]

They are making so much money the extra income would be a burden?

One of the things constantly drummed into me when buying the minnow of the range is how many parts it shares with the flagship. Hinges, light switches, etc etc. So it isn't as though you need different bits for every boat in the range.

Henry

 

[Marine Reflections]

Changing the subject slightly to the subject of service, finding where the control box for electric sliding roof is etc, I find You Tube videos amazingly helpful.

In the last few months I have replaced the head gasket on our BMW, diagnosed and fixed the auto gearbox on the Merc, and stripped / re-furbished / tuned the carbs on my Yamaha all via videos from owners or mechanics who were kind enough put up a how to video.

Might not be long before owners put up videos of a tour around a V45 stating this is where the control box is, and this switch does this etc etc.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

So what do you guys think? It isn't just Princess, I think all the manufacturers are missing a trick. Car manufacturers make more money selling parts than they do selling cars and the service side of the business usually covers the entire operating costs for the whole outfit.

On the face of it, boat builders and their dealers are missing a trick. I own a business selling high value capital equipment with prices not dissimilar to large boats and yes, the margin on selling spares and service goes a long way to covering the total overheads of the company every year. I look at selling a piece of equipment not so much in terms of the margin on the sale, although thats important, but as a means of generating future spares and service revenue. In fact, sometimes I think I'd be better off and a lot less stressed if I sacked all my staff and just sat in my office alone only selling spares

But it is also about customer expectation too. In my industry, our customers expect us to be able to provide after sales support for the lifetime of the machine and if we couldn't, we would soon start to lose business. However, in the boat selling industry, customers don't expect that and I think that is because when a boat breaks down, its generally not costing the owner money by being unavailable, only time, hassle and inconvenience. If we were all chartering our boats and any breakdowns cost us income, then I expect customer expectation of service in the boat selling industry would be a lot higher

In the meantime, with some honourable exceptions, we boaters put up with a level of support that we just wouldn't put up with in any other area of our lives

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

I think what you need is an app!

http://www.vesselvanguard.com

I believe that Fleming and quite a lot of other builders use this platform

 

[Cheery]

I can think of a friend quoted £5,000 to replace damaged (chaffed) wiring on a car bought new and serviced by the factory.

Needless to say it ended up being done free of charge.

I think it all stems from not wanting to take ownership or responsibility. Your independent engineer tells you something was fitted badly at the factory then quotes you for repair, it's not his fault. A manufacturer's engineer doesn't have that luxury. They could lie and possibly get away with it but ultimately it wouldn't take too many free jobs or approaches to the factory to cover the repair before it was ironed out during the build process.

Back to my scenario. I had a problem with a faulty wire (as it turned out) which resulted in total loss of power.Called the manufacturer and their engineer duly turned up and found the problem was caused by an external wire blowing in the wind and chafing through. It should have been clipped onto the frame at installation. Result, no charge to me and future installations will have been modified.

As to the car dealer collecting your car. SWMBO has a Smart car and Mercedes Manchester collect it from her office several miles away and return it later that day. Again, we are talking about cheaper products receiving better service than nautical equivalents. It beggars belief that these discussions are taking place here.

 

[Nick_H]

Virtually all of the things on boats that needs servicing or repairing are proprietary products from third party suppliers, in stark contrast to the situation with cars and boilers. There would therefore be little benefit in having the boat builder arrange or carry out the service or repair work, as opposed to any other competent service company.

In fact, there's a big disadvantage to having the boat builder carry out or organise the work, because they can't have a service centre in every port or marina just to look after the handful of boats of their own brand that reside there, so they will always be dealing with issues remotely. It surely makes more sense to have an independent service centre in each port/marina that can look after all of the boats regardless of brand, and bring in the proprietary equipment dealers as and when necessary?

 

[PEJ]

They are making so much money the extra income would be a burden?

Henry

H, I guess you were joking but many a true word is spoken in jest.

In my industry (swimming pools) there are plenty of people who will take your £30K and build your pool but when you want an O ring for your pump or a skimmer basket or the handle for your multiport valve the builder will not want to know. So you try the local shop that sells chemicals and leaf nets. They might have the very common stuff but the unusual things - forget it.

Now the mark-up on spares is very good, much more in percentage terms than building a pool or handing over a tub of chlorine but the hassle involved in search through the spares catalogues for that handle for the valve of an uncommon filter to find that it costs £14.20 so you make £4 out of it is really not worth it, the pool dealers are making so much money on all the other stuff they really can't be bothered. I suspect the same attitude prevails through the boat industry.

Alternatively you tell the customer that it costs £125.00 and they say they will manage with the broken one. Either way the attitude to spare remains - can't be arsed.

 

[henryf]

Virtually all of the things on boats that needs servicing or repairing are proprietary products from third party suppliers, in stark contrast to the situation with cars and boilers. There would therefore be little benefit in having the boat builder arrange or carry out the service or repair work, as opposed to any other competent service company.

In fact, there's a big disadvantage to having the boat builder carry out or organise the work, because they can't have a service centre in every port or marina just to look after the handful of boats of their own brand that reside there, so they will always be dealing with issues remotely. It surely makes more sense to have an independent service centre in each port/marina that can look after all of the boats regardless of brand, and bring in the proprietary equipment dealers as and when necessary?

I totally disagree.

Ford don't make air conditioning parts, electrical components, trim, wheels, seats, brake components, clutch parts, light bulbs, plastic body parts, mirrors, etc, etc, etc. But I don't try and track down the individual manufacturer I go to Ford. As much as anything it's knowing how the part is fitted. Take my ram for the flybridge hatch which, when I eventually tracked them down the ram people wouldn't sell me because they only supply manufacturers. I also wasn't entirely sure which exact model and specification it was. They come in several pressures. The last thing I wanted to see was the lovely Mrs Henry-f propelled through the hatch and into the sky because I'd fitted rams that were a touch on the powerful side.

The boat builder will not only know which one I need they will also know how to fit it without damaging anything.

The other thing to keep in mind is that when said supplier decides to stop production of an item you are left with a very expensive pile of useless plastic. If the builder doesn't have any involvement in after sales then it isn't their problem. I seem to remember someone who couldn't get a bit of glass for a relatively new boat. When a builder has to maintain their products they also ensure longevity of supply or know who to go to for a solution which can be shared out amongst other owners.

We find ways round these problems but we shouldn't have to. I've got a few jobs I want sorting at the moment but I'm struggling to find both the time to go down to the boat to talk someone round the problem and also the people to approach. I then have to pay their learning curve as opposed to a manufacturer techie who has seen the problem 10 times before, spent a while sorting the first one out but now does it in their sleep.

Alternatively they will know who to go to to sort out the problem and if they've seen the same fault too many times do something to ensure it doesn't happen on new boats. As it is the industry remains static.

Henry

 

[rafiki_]

Virtually all of the things on boats that needs servicing or repairing are proprietary products from third party suppliers, in stark contrast to the situation with cars and boilers. There would therefore be little benefit in having the boat builder arrange or carry out the service or repair work, as opposed to any other competent service company.

In fact, there's a big disadvantage to having the boat builder carry out or organise the work, because they can't have a service centre in every port or marina just to look after the handful of boats of their own brand that reside there, so they will always be dealing with issues remotely. It surely makes more sense to have an independent service centre in each port/marina that can look after all of the boats regardless of brand, and bring in the proprietary equipment dealers as and when necessary?

So who do you think makes the seats, instruments, wiring harness, gearbox, suspension, carpet, lights, a/c, ice, electronic controllers (60+), wheels/tyres, folding roofs, front and rear fenders, turbo's, injectors, hoses, pipes, brakes, pedal box, soft trim, etc etc etc There are some 20,000 parts on a car, about 400 of these go together on the final assembly line, the rest are bought in.
What is the difference to the boat industry?