Are the boat builders selling us short ?

[henryf]

I replied to a comment made in another thread. At the time I thought it warranted a separate thread so here goes:

Henry
Thought provoking thread - good stuff.
I also am a Princess owner (P50 - same as yours) and prior to that, I owned a 45 Flybridge and must say we've been very happy with them both. Aside from the boats themselves, the service and support from their main distributor (Princess Motor Yacht Sales) has always been top notch. It seems to be a common theme with Princess owners; the service they have received has generally been excellent. However, having had very little need to call on their services over the last few years, I did recently for something - admittedly - minor and frankly, the service was poor - in the end they just simply didn't respond and I fixed the thing myself.
Point is, the boats are one thing but another factor in the equation is that of service and support and although I wouldn't want to judge Princess's support on one poor episode - especially after years of good service - if they let this important area slip, then people like me who would have previously not seriously considered other marques will be inclined to at least look at other offerings and Fairline have to be a real contender...

I nearly started another thread to respond because I think you have raised a very interesting point and it is a topic close to my heart.

At every boat show for as long as I can remember I have badgered Princess to sort themselves out and offer a one stop shop for on-going maintenance. "It's coming" I am told but the reality is it isn't. The boat world is miles behind the times. Imagine having to undertake a full engineers report prior to buying your next car from the main dealer. Putting down a 10% deposit prior to a test drive, having no maintenance programme available or parts supply in place.

The "S" in PMYS stands for sales, not service. They sell you a boat and to be fair are very good when it comes to dealing with any problems you might have. But ultimately they are in sales and any work they do is geared around pre-sales commissioning and after sales warranty. They seem pretty decent when it comes to bits and pieces outside the traditional warranty period but you do feel that you are asking favours as time goes on.

Where there is a gaping hole is on-going routine, charged for support. Engine servicing, ancillary servicing, hull maintenance and parts supply. We shouldn't have to run the gauntlet of third party suppliers or try to track down the manufacturers for any parts that fail - many of whom tell you they can only supply to Princess. Only yesterday there was a post asking for the location of the power roof control unit on a 2012 boat, there are hundreds of systems and service parts which Princess know like the back of their hand but which we have to go on a vertical learning curve to discover. Yes, you can phone "your" man to ask but you're asking a favour all the time.

We should simply call up the "concierge" hotline (they always seem to be called concierge these days) and Princess get things sorted. They know the factory, they know what usually goes wrong and they know who the good guys out there are. We service one boat a year, they might be looking after a few hundred. Ultimately it's a revenue stream, we aren't expecting charity.

It would also mean that there is no excuse for the standard of boats not to be maintained making part exchanges much easier. I spoke at length this weekend on the subject of second hand boats and Princess do want them. Sadly the cloak and dagger pricing which the industry seems so desperate to maintain makes buying into stock all but impossible. When actual selling price is hidden behind manufacturers RRP and brokers la la land prices a trade bid looks like daylight robbery when in fact it probably isn't. It's just that no one ever uses realistic numbers and none of us have a clue what boats are actually worth.

As you quite rightly say if the whole ownership experience is turn key you would think twice before jumping ship to another marque. As it is we are all on our own once the warranty period runs out and the bloke servicing your Volvo, CAT, MAN or MTU engines doesn't give a monkeys who built the boat so long as he can get to all the vital parts. Ask him (or her) which boats are best and they will judge from the engine room not the master cabin...

Henry

So what do you guys think? It isn't just Princess, I think all the manufacturers are missing a trick. Car manufacturers make more money selling parts than they do selling cars and the service side of the business usually covers the entire operating costs for the whole outfit.

It's an odd situation.

Henry

 

[Jamesuk]

Control of supply chain:

www.hr-parts.com

 

[henryf]

Control of supply chain:

www.hr-parts.com

But is it control of the supply chain or looking after your customers and ensuring the on-going value of your boats.

I am not aware of any UK motorboat manufacturer who has a site like that. Think of all the people out there thinking they want to get hold of bits but end up having to make do with generic poor quality items.

A motor boat will have more systems which require servicing on a regular basis so as well as the parts there is planned and un-scheduled work.

Henry

 

[rubberduck]

We have found a boat that suits us, goes where we tell it to when we want it to & doesn't have something different wrong with it every time we go to the marina, which is contrary to our experience with previous boats. It is for this reason we are reluctant to upgrade, the marine industry needs to get its act together. When a customer asks us (as a company) to jump, we ask how high, & expect the same of anyone trying to get us to spend a few £100k with them. Princess I have found to be very poor in this respect. If they can't be bothered before the sale what on earth are they going to be like when they have the money.

 

[Richard.C]

I'd say the boat builders are selling themselves short Henry.

In all other industries I know the aftermarket is what generates regular cashflow and higher levels of profitability than capital purchases.

Richard

 

[Ragnahex]

it certainly seems like boat builders are stuck in the last century.

 

[Hugin]

So what do you guys think? It isn't just Princess, I think all the manufacturers are missing a trick. Car manufacturers make more money selling parts than they do selling cars and the service side of the business usually covers the entire operating costs for the whole outfit.

I think it's the production numbers that works against the leisure boat manufacturers. When you move a few million units annually, as many car manufacturers do, then you have the critical mass to build up the logistics, so you can service even the remote corners of the market.

When you move only a few hundred units or a few dozens... many of the boats customized to a significant degree.... then the logistics become untenable. Maybe Jeanneau/Beneteau, Bavaria and 1 or 2 others could justify the investment in a logistic net covering the main markets, since they produce in excess of 1000 units annually, but you really need some critical mass to have a qualified service man and a delivery point for spare parts everywhere it's needed.

Of course, every manufacturer should offer online ordering of all spare parts - like Hallberg-Rassy apparently does - and that very few have done so is evidence they haven't analyzed the value stream. I think it stems from many manufacturers being caught in the era where a craftsman started a small production in a barn or garage; found their place in the market and expanded..... but mentally the managements of 2015 still reside in that first barn or garage where the founder created value with his own hands.

Reading about Swanwick Marina just before writing this it seems there are more money in providing "parking lots" for boats than manufacturing boats.... I empathize "seems", because I don't know the numbers.

 

[Jamesuk]

I am not aware of any UK motorboat manufacturer who has a site like that. Think of all the people out there thinking they want to get hold of bits but end up having to make do with generic poor quality items.

A motor boat will have more systems which require servicing on a regular basis so as well as the parts there is planned and un-scheduled work.

Henry

what parts and service are you expecting?

 

[aquapower]

Owners need to support this kind of service, I have worked in boat building/repair for 20 plus years and from experience its a very expensive service to provide which has to be paid for, a lot of owners only want free advise and for you to do their homework on parts so they can buy from cheap online supplier that knows nothing about boats, I lost count of the times I would get a call when somthing went wrong and when I offered to send a member of staff to carry out repair I would be told 'im doing work myself, I need you to explain how to do it'
I would also regularly get asked what battery's were needed as owner would look at website from home and didn't know what battery's he needed without going to boat to find out, you can't expect boat builder to do all the leg work and get nothing out of it, I guess this is why they are not all falling over themselves to provide service.

 

[henryf]

what parts and service are you expecting?

Anything that fails on the boat. Routine maintenance for machinery and services and replacement of failed parts. Possibly also hull maintenance.

Henry

 

[henryf]

Owners need to support this kind of service, I have worked in boat building/repair for 20 plus years and from experience its a very expensive service to provide which has to be paid for, a lot of owners only want free advise and for you to do their homework on parts so they can buy from cheap online supplier that knows nothing about boats, I lost count of the times I would get a call when somthing went wrong and when I offered to send a member of staff to carry out repair I would be told 'im doing work myself, I need you to explain how to do it'
I would also regularly get asked what battery's were needed as owner would look at website from home and didn't know what battery's he needed without going to boat to find out, you can't expect boat builder to do all the leg work and get nothing out of it, I guess this is why they are not all falling over themselves to provide service.

Is it surprising?

We have been forced to fend for ourselves by the builders. How many people buying a new boat from those 3 builders change their own engine oil? Very few because the engine manufacturers don't leave us in the lurch and we are used to using a third party to service them just as we do our cars.

Why did I change the batteries on our boat myself recently? Because I wouldn't have a clue who to call. Princess could do the work but they don't really do jobs outside PDI or warranty.

I could run the gauntlet of third party providers but my experiences of marine "technicians" is not good so I did it myself.

If the builders provided a credible repair service I would have paid them but they don't.

 

[rubberduck]

Is it surprising?

We have been forced to fend for ourselves by the builders. How many people buying a new boat from those 3 builders change their own engine oil? Very few because the engine manufacturers don't leave us in the lurch and we are used to using a third party to service them just as we do our cars.

Why did I change the batteries on our boat myself recently? Because I wouldn't have a clue who to call. Princess could do the work but they don't really do jobs outside PDI or warranty.

I could run the gauntlet of third party providers but my experiences of marine "technicians" is not good so I did it myself.

If the builders provided a credible repair service I would have paid them but they don't.

Spot on I'm afraid.

 

[Cheery]

It does seem that once they have sold a large value item to a customer their interest wanes somewhat. I have a fish and chip shop and it was kitted out with the very best I could get my hands on (I've got the grey hair to prove it). One of these items was the frying range which cost around £50k. Every year it is serviced by the company who manufactured it, a Dutch company who have a subsidiary over here. Why do I get the manufacturer to do it when there are other companies who could possibly do it cheaper? The engineers know their own product and they carry most parts they are likely to need on their vans. When I ring to arrange servicing it is done to fit in with me and they ring nearer the appointment to ask if there are any problems to be aware of before they get there so they can bring the 'oddball' part if needed. Now, my £50k is someway short of the huge sums spent on a boat but it sounds like the service levels are reversed the more is spent. As stated, someone is missing a trick.

 

[henryf]

We do exactly the same with our boilers at home.

What actually happens on a boat is most of the stuff just gets left unserviced. Stabilisers and air conditioning are two things that immediately spring to mind. How many owners even know where all the air handlers are located let alone how and when to clean the filters? Apparently there are seals to change on the stabilisers.

Even at a more mundane level how many owners know every sea cock and valve on their boat which needs working every now and again to ensure longevity of life?

The list goes on and on.

To be fair when it come to engines there are options outside the main dealers but it's all the ancillary stuff. Even with the engines I would much rather just call up Princess and have them arrange engine & generator servicing. They know who to use and can liaise in the even of a potential warranty item.

Generators are an interesting one. Your franchised engine technician won't have any interest in another company's generator. It also might not be cost effective to use them. The boat builders / sellers know who is best for each job.


Henry

 

[gjgm]

I think the problem is location. A VP mechanic charges as much per hour to drive his car as he does to fix your complex engine. I am sure a boat manufacturer can arrange this, but too many punters would balk at the cost, I think. No 30pct discount, eh ... You could make a lot of cruises down to Plymouth of course

 

[rafiki_]

I think the problem is location. A VP mechanic charges as much per hour to drive his car as he does to fix your complex engine. I am sure a boat manufacturer can arrange this, but too many punters would balk at the cost, I think. No 30pct discount, eh ... You could make a lot of cruises down to Plymouth of course

This is a fair point, as the technician wants paying the same amount whether driving or shifting spanners. However, most marina's have a resident workshop or locally based technicians. We have Advance Engineering at Portishead who give a great service, and can cover pretty much every service that you might want on board. There are other specialists for gel repairs, sails, rigging and the like too. Being from the auto sector, I get Henry's irritation, but it is a very different sector, with, as he says, much better margins in aftersales and second hand vehicles than new, and my BMW Stealer works very hard to keep me happy (Whale Group, so same as PMYS).

 

[henryf]

I think the problem is location. A VP mechanic charges as much per hour to drive his car as he does to fix your complex engine. I am sure a boat manufacturer can arrange this, but too many punters would balk at the cost, I think. No 30pct discount, eh ... You could make a lot of cruises down to Plymouth of course

This is the first hurdle you immediately think of and there will be times when geographic location makes it difficult but let's keep things simple for the moment and consider the Solent. The sheer number of boats mean that it wouldn't be too hard to arrange jobs in such a way that you can kill a couple of birds with one stone. Let's not forget as well that a van is cheaper than a fully equipped workshop.

At £60 per hour you can turn a profit from a mobile techie, the 3 manufacturers I've mentioned could probably get away with charging more than that.

Consider also the savings. As an owner you don't have to drive down to the boat to oversee any work. Also many of the jobs aren't time critical. You don't need the boat to drive to work so you will probably have a good window of opportunity to arrange your diary.

For big projects I wouldn't be averse to dropping the boat off at Swanwick. They could even offer a collection / delivery service - chargeable of course. You can decide whether it's easier to use that rather than run around yourself.

Let's not forget that in the case of Princess the boats can sell for £15 million. The cheapest is probably going to cost you circa £500,000 and it's very easy to invest a couple of million in the brand. I'm not suggesting it will work for all budgets or brands, although I do maintain that getting involved in after sales work strengthens the product. Look at FPB boats. There aren't too many hard to access parts on those because the company use them for thousands of miles. Many of the people involved in the big 3 companies have never been out to sea, let alone run and maintained the product over a prolonged period.

Henry

 

[Whitelighter]

I don't know many (any?) car manufacturers that come to you to service your car. You have to take your car to them.

If the dealerships had to go out to your home I suspect they also wouldn't bother.

Also, you mention getting the manufacturers 'engineer' is the best option. Well that isn't princess. It's volvo, or MTU or cruise air or webasto ETC. How can one engineer be a specialist in all third party systems, many complex.

The analogy with cars simply doesn't work. Boats are to complex to offer a 1 stop shop and the market to fragmented to offer an efficient service.

The only place I agree with you is centralised parts supply.

 

[gjgm]

Let's not forget that in the case of Princess the boats can sell for £15 million. Henry

Don't forget the discount H, don't forget the discount

 

[Jamesuk]

I think what you need is an app!

A powerful app that incorporates all the manuals for your boat which is exclusive to your boat into a troubleshooting guide which ends with a part being ordered direct from the supplier and is delivered with a list of 'authorised' dealers in the area to
Install it.

Start there.