DJE
Well-Known Member
What about a hoop on the bow as used by the Hawk 20 and a canvas chute on top of the foredeck?
Are snuffers the work of the devil?
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Greenheart
Well-Known Member
It sounds like a very good plan and I like it...but as with everything spinnaker-related, I speak through a dense fog of ignorance and inexperience...
...so it might suit me superbly, or represent unforeseen difficulties.
I guess my principal doubt relates to how the spinnaker can be induced to shrink back into the space it emerged from, be it a snuffer or chute...
...I can see why a snuffer may require somebody on the foredeck to operate it, whereas a line which 'implodes' the sail and draws it down into a chute will work more easily for singlehanding...
...although I won't be surprised to be corrected on that assumption, either.
...so it might suit me superbly, or represent unforeseen difficulties.
I guess my principal doubt relates to how the spinnaker can be induced to shrink back into the space it emerged from, be it a snuffer or chute...
...I can see why a snuffer may require somebody on the foredeck to operate it, whereas a line which 'implodes' the sail and draws it down into a chute will work more easily for singlehanding...
...although I won't be surprised to be corrected on that assumption, either.
rogerthebodger
Well-Known Member
Interesting thread and as I have had problems with raising my spinnaker sock, Snuffing the spinnaker is OK I started to look for cost effective alternatives and the discussion on spinnaker chute started me thinking if a deck mounted chute would work and cane up with this.
http://www.us.laser2sailing.org/gallery/Spinnaker-sock/
In effect a spinnaker sock tied to the deck like a chute.
Any one looked at this and or used one in anger and do you think it could be used and a bigger 45ft + cruising boat.
http://www.us.laser2sailing.org/gallery/Spinnaker-sock/
In effect a spinnaker sock tied to the deck like a chute.
Any one looked at this and or used one in anger and do you think it could be used and a bigger 45ft + cruising boat.
Seajet
...
It sounds like a very good plan and I like it...but as with everything spinnaker-related, I speak through a dense fog of ignorance and inexperience...
...so it might suit me superbly, or represent unforeseen difficulties.
I guess my principal doubt relates to how the spinnaker can be induced to shrink back into the space it emerged from, be it a snuffer or chute...
...I can see why a snuffer may require somebody on the foredeck to operate it, whereas a line which 'implodes' the sail and draws it down into a chute will work more easily for singlehanding...
...although I won't be surprised to be corrected on that assumption, either.
Dan,
I presume by ' imploding line ' you'r ereferring to the downhaul line on the inside centre of the kite ?
I suspect that will be very useful to you.
I think with that and fairly central cleats for sheet and guy you should be OK; maybe a stiffened hoop to hold the sail bag in the boat and open ready somewhere abaft the foredeck ?
Ideally I suppose a velcro strap over the bag mouth to prevent it self deploying in gusts; I've just been playing with my chute bag which has these and made me think of it.
DJE
Well-Known Member
. Not if it has guardrails.
rogerthebodger
Well-Known Member
Good point. Unless it can pass under the pulpit.
Don't know how the running rigging of a spinnaker chute works perhaps some one can enlighten me.
Greenheart
Well-Known Member
Rogershaw, thanks for the Laser 2 pic...the removable decktop chute & bag is increasingly appealing.
I'm assuming that hauling the spinnaker down to a chute well forward of the mast, is less of a fight than dragging it backwards to a sailbag in the cockpit...
...and that it can thus be accomplished just by releasing halyards/sheets/guys while pulling on the central downhaul, something like the brisk & tidy way seen in DJE's video earlier, though I realise it'll be harder with a symmetric spinn.
As you say Andy, the kite's central downhaul-line is what I meant.
I'm curious what you meant by central cleats though. As far as I can understand the layout, my spinn sheet cleats are on the port & starboard edges of my afterdeck, well aft...
...while the fairleads and cleats which I assume are for the guys, are almost exactly at the foot of the shrouds...so none of them are what I'd call 'central'.
I'm assuming that hauling the spinnaker down to a chute well forward of the mast, is less of a fight than dragging it backwards to a sailbag in the cockpit...
...and that it can thus be accomplished just by releasing halyards/sheets/guys while pulling on the central downhaul, something like the brisk & tidy way seen in DJE's video earlier, though I realise it'll be harder with a symmetric spinn.
As you say Andy, the kite's central downhaul-line is what I meant.
I'm curious what you meant by central cleats though. As far as I can understand the layout, my spinn sheet cleats are on the port & starboard edges of my afterdeck, well aft...
...while the fairleads and cleats which I assume are for the guys, are almost exactly at the foot of the shrouds...so none of them are what I'd call 'central'.
rogerthebodger
Well-Known Member
Dan what do you mean by central downhaul. Is that a line that runs from the middle of the spinnaker down to deck so that the spinnaker is collapsed from the centre and if this is then fed down the centre of a deck bag as I posted would pull the spinnaker into the bag while releasing the halyard, sheet and guy.
Seajet
...
Rogershaw,
I think in answer to your question, on dinghies with chutes the central downhaul line is indeed fed through the chute and forms an endless line, the other end being on the head of the kite as the halliard.
Dan,
by central cleats for the kite I was thinking of having the sheets ( / guys ) running forward from the turning blocks at the sides of the Osprey aft deck, forward to on deck beside the centre thwart, with cam cleats at the inboard edges of the deck there, faced to resist a pull from outboard if you see what I mean.
Thinking about it, I was using the kite as it was set up for 2 people; helmsman stands behind centreboard case to pull the sail up & down, crew handles the pole, sheet & guy from centre of the boat initially
For balance / trim reasons this still strikes me as right when singlehanding, I don't remember that being a problem at all.
One would need to keep an eye on loss of leverage with the tiller extension from the centre of the boat though; it's a long time since I sailed my Osprey - though am hoping to sail Vern's example ( quite like yours originally ) soon.
Might be worth a terry clip on the tiller ( if there's space ) to lightly lock the extension forward, but very quickly releasable by lifting ???
It wouldn't pay to have it interface with the mainsheet, that's for sure, just typing as I muse...
I think in answer to your question, on dinghies with chutes the central downhaul line is indeed fed through the chute and forms an endless line, the other end being on the head of the kite as the halliard.
Dan,
by central cleats for the kite I was thinking of having the sheets ( / guys ) running forward from the turning blocks at the sides of the Osprey aft deck, forward to on deck beside the centre thwart, with cam cleats at the inboard edges of the deck there, faced to resist a pull from outboard if you see what I mean.
Thinking about it, I was using the kite as it was set up for 2 people; helmsman stands behind centreboard case to pull the sail up & down, crew handles the pole, sheet & guy from centre of the boat initially
For balance / trim reasons this still strikes me as right when singlehanding, I don't remember that being a problem at all.
One would need to keep an eye on loss of leverage with the tiller extension from the centre of the boat though; it's a long time since I sailed my Osprey - though am hoping to sail Vern's example ( quite like yours originally ) soon.
Might be worth a terry clip on the tiller ( if there's space ) to lightly lock the extension forward, but very quickly releasable by lifting ???
It wouldn't pay to have it interface with the mainsheet, that's for sure, just typing as I muse...
rogerthebodger
Well-Known Member
With the one end of the central downhaul attached to the centre of the spinnaker and the other attached to the head or the spinnaker ? Is that correct.
Greenheart
Well-Known Member
It's a fair question Roger...I've never used mine, but getting the spinnaker out of the bag the other day, I saw a reinforced hole in the centre, and assumed (if I didn't already know) that it is used to haul the sail down and in, more easily than one might do so by the sheet & guy.
No point pretending I've used it though, nor have I seen it done; but it seems like sense, and those who know, seem to concur.
Andy, your description of the blocks reminds me that there are (or were) fairleads on the Osprey's floor, presumably for the spinnaker sheets led forward after running through the turning blocks aft...I had pictured myself sheeting direct from the turning blocks.
My alternativist nature (as an extension of the fact I'll be handling all the lines alone) makes me wonder just how much of a tangle the cockpit may become, with a pair of spinnaker sheets led there, both of their tails and the mainsheet in heaps at my feet...
...I'd quite like to rig the spinnaker sheets through the gunwale overhang at the turning blocks, then forward under the gunwale to a point a few inches behind the traveller, where they'd emerge through port & starboard blocks to be tweaked and cleated by the trapezing loon opposite. Hence keeping most of the rear of the cockpit relatively clear of lines...I'd fit bags for the tails.
Regarding the 'terry clip', here's what I made last week, using a little epoxied block of iroko to reduce the angle on the universal joint...
...not a thing of desperate elegance perhaps, but I realised late last season that the long, long extension I'll be using if I trapeze, will be a royal pain in the rear when it's not in use, such as for brief periods at the mast or working the centreboard/bailers/humidor.
Apologies to folk looking for references to snuffers.
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Xenofonte
New Member
[70521]
Well-Known Member
I like them, but sail short handed.
Iain C
Well-Known Member
On a yacht, I do like snuffers. Just the comfort of knowing at the first sign of a squall, by snuffing even the top 1/3 of the kite, you'e effectively killed it's power. Here I am mid-snuff on my old boat...it's just so easy and regularly single hand with the kite up with no worries.
I'm about to order a kite for the Bavaria and I will absolutely be having a snuffer again (and I'll be building another DIY carbon bowsprit again too!)
Dan, for your Osprey, you don't want anything going up the mast...keep your chute/snuffer on the deck. Bear in mind that a lot of dinghies ditched chutes in the 90s to avoid the weight/leaks and just went to bags. But they still have their place...and if you want to go really pimp, what about a pump up/pump down system?
http://www.draycotewater.co.uk/fleets/fireball/html/pump-up___pump-down.html
I'm about to order a kite for the Bavaria and I will absolutely be having a snuffer again (and I'll be building another DIY carbon bowsprit again too!)
Dan, for your Osprey, you don't want anything going up the mast...keep your chute/snuffer on the deck. Bear in mind that a lot of dinghies ditched chutes in the 90s to avoid the weight/leaks and just went to bags. But they still have their place...and if you want to go really pimp, what about a pump up/pump down system?
http://www.draycotewater.co.uk/fleets/fireball/html/pump-up___pump-down.html
Daydream believer
Well-Known Member
Dan
if you look at most dinghies with spinnaker chutes within the original design you will see that the mouth of the chute is in front of the forestay. this is so that the chute can be dropped on either tack. the picture of the deck mounted chute is not ideal because whilst it may work on one tack on the other tack the chute has to be dragged around the forestay . This creates much friction, especially if wet. You do not need this if single handed.
In addition the chute may foul the jib when tacking if it keeps the mouth standing upright when the sail is inside it.The packed sail will still stick out the aft end & have to be stowed somewhere.
If you go down the chute route the mouth really needs to be set in the deck & right up the front .
I would not even waste time on a snuffer. It does not work. if you let the tack go to start snuffing the sail & snuffer will be all over the place.If you do manage to get it snuffed & unsnuffed you still need to stow it.
Just get used to dropping into the boat by the mast into a couple of triangular mouthed spinnaker bags hooked to the deck . Top Sailors have found that it works on loads of dinghies so there is little point in trying to reinvent the wheel
If you want to use the hole in the sail to collapse it you may find that you can use 2 lines. One going on the port & one on the stbd so you can pull one or the other. I have never seen this tried but it may work, or it may just be another item to tangle. However, if single handing it may help if you can grab one whilst sitting on the windward side. Release the tack & pull the line enough to be able to get hold of the sail as it comes under the boom. You can then come in to the centre of the boat & gather the sail into the bag
if you look at most dinghies with spinnaker chutes within the original design you will see that the mouth of the chute is in front of the forestay. this is so that the chute can be dropped on either tack. the picture of the deck mounted chute is not ideal because whilst it may work on one tack on the other tack the chute has to be dragged around the forestay . This creates much friction, especially if wet. You do not need this if single handed.
In addition the chute may foul the jib when tacking if it keeps the mouth standing upright when the sail is inside it.The packed sail will still stick out the aft end & have to be stowed somewhere.
If you go down the chute route the mouth really needs to be set in the deck & right up the front .
I would not even waste time on a snuffer. It does not work. if you let the tack go to start snuffing the sail & snuffer will be all over the place.If you do manage to get it snuffed & unsnuffed you still need to stow it.
Just get used to dropping into the boat by the mast into a couple of triangular mouthed spinnaker bags hooked to the deck . Top Sailors have found that it works on loads of dinghies so there is little point in trying to reinvent the wheel
If you want to use the hole in the sail to collapse it you may find that you can use 2 lines. One going on the port & one on the stbd so you can pull one or the other. I have never seen this tried but it may work, or it may just be another item to tangle. However, if single handing it may help if you can grab one whilst sitting on the windward side. Release the tack & pull the line enough to be able to get hold of the sail as it comes under the boom. You can then come in to the centre of the boat & gather the sail into the bag
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lw395
Well-Known Member
Plenty of dinghies work quite well with a spinnaker chute well back from the forestay.
It works reasonably well with a symmetrical kite.
It's not great with an asy kite, dragging the kite around the forestay if you're on the wrong tack and can't bear away.
It does allow a bigger chute mouth. As asy kites have got bigger, there is less often room to put an adequate size chute in front of the forestay.
What makes it all hard work is generally dragging a big wet kite through a small hole.
It works reasonably well with a symmetrical kite.
It's not great with an asy kite, dragging the kite around the forestay if you're on the wrong tack and can't bear away.
It does allow a bigger chute mouth. As asy kites have got bigger, there is less often room to put an adequate size chute in front of the forestay.
What makes it all hard work is generally dragging a big wet kite through a small hole.
Daydream believer
Well-Known Member
Just out of interest would you like to name a few performance dinghies so we can see the set ups please
What you have to remember is that Dan will be sailing a dinghy designed for 2 persons single handed flying a large asymetric sail.
He will not have a crew to balance the boat & help get the sheets in or help pull the sail down. As well as dragging a large kite through a foredeck mounted chute, whether above or below deck, he may have the friction of the forestay as well.
Friction is the real killer in all these manouvers.
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lw395
Well-Known Member
With chute in front of Forestay:
RS800, RS700, Musto Skiff, Merlin (included because either is allowed under the rules AIUI, but nearly all have the forestay set back.)
Chute behind forestay
A lot of Cherubs, Int14s, Asy Int Canoe, Topper Boss, Laser 4000, 49er-kite huge.
505 can be either. Like Fireballs, many use bags and no chute.
B14, no chute, just bags (one design)
18ft Skiff chute probably allowed but bags used. Kite immense.
Most of the singlehanders with kites have some sort of bar across the bow which forms the top of the chute and the jib is tacked onto that.
So you get a reasonably wide mouth to the chute.
The notable exception would be the IC, which has the chute well back on the foredeck, to allow a big mouth to it.
The IC is going to make an Osprey look like the Ark Royal, stability wise. It also has a jib, unlike most singlehanders.
Friction is one killer, but you can work on that with silicone spray etc. A bigger killer is getting the kite in the water.
The RS700 AFAIK has a pump-up/ pump-down system. That at least means you only need one hand to retrieve the kite.
TBH, above F1.5, it will be necessary to go onto a near dead run to drop the kite anyway.
Maybe using a retrieval line on the normal patch and just pulling it into the boat and stuffing it in a bag behind the foredeck would not be that bad. But when you come to launch it again, you'd need the kite on the leeward side.
RS800, RS700, Musto Skiff, Merlin (included because either is allowed under the rules AIUI, but nearly all have the forestay set back.)
Chute behind forestay
A lot of Cherubs, Int14s, Asy Int Canoe, Topper Boss, Laser 4000, 49er-kite huge.
505 can be either. Like Fireballs, many use bags and no chute.
B14, no chute, just bags (one design)
18ft Skiff chute probably allowed but bags used. Kite immense.
Most of the singlehanders with kites have some sort of bar across the bow which forms the top of the chute and the jib is tacked onto that.
So you get a reasonably wide mouth to the chute.
The notable exception would be the IC, which has the chute well back on the foredeck, to allow a big mouth to it.
The IC is going to make an Osprey look like the Ark Royal, stability wise. It also has a jib, unlike most singlehanders.
Friction is one killer, but you can work on that with silicone spray etc. A bigger killer is getting the kite in the water.
The RS700 AFAIK has a pump-up/ pump-down system. That at least means you only need one hand to retrieve the kite.
TBH, above F1.5, it will be necessary to go onto a near dead run to drop the kite anyway.
Maybe using a retrieval line on the normal patch and just pulling it into the boat and stuffing it in a bag behind the foredeck would not be that bad. But when you come to launch it again, you'd need the kite on the leeward side.
DJE
Well-Known Member
What about one of those big ugly hoops on the bow that they use on the Hawk 20?
http://www.hawk20.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Dayboat04.jpg
http://www.hawk20.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Dayboat04.jpg
Greenheart
Well-Known Member
First of all, apologies to anyone dropping in here, for snuffer stuff...my use of a snuffer was only ever a momentary idea stemming from the difficulty of retro-fitting a spinnaker tube in an old dinghy.
Iain, LW395, Daydream, DJE...I'm very grateful for your insights here. I do wish that I could point at the dates of earlier posts and shriek with laughter, remarking that my last entry in this thread (above) was very nearly two years ago, and that I have long since sorted out the spinnaker and chute, and that I now need no guidance...but you gentlemen know me better than that.
In my defence, let me say that I am now slightly closer to converting a big two/three man symmetric spinnaker dinghy into a singlehanded asymmetric version. If anyone asks why I don't just buy a Musto Skiff, it's because I don't want one - I'm very happy with the boat I have - I'd just like a pole-free spinnaker, too.
I recognised the potential difficulty with a chute-mouth being positioned behind the forestay, some time in 2016. I don't claim it cannot be handled this way, and it would certainly make the chute or tunnel infinitely easier to construct...
...but with my forestay based inches from the stem, I decided to build a biggish plywood platform that would bolt to the Osprey's thick gunwales ahead of the forestay; one side supporting the chute-mouth, the other supporting a U-bolt which will hold the bowsprit...
...it's not pretty, but I'm hopeful it will work. Much uglier, and harder to construct, is the spinnaker chute itself. I used 40mm plumbing pipe and a very tired old genoa whose fabric is likely to stick to the kite itself, when wet. I invested in a can of McLube and will spray chute and sail, thoroughly. I realise that the appearance is distressingly similar to a gaping supermarket carrier-bag...
...let me assure anybody who's appalled, that that's a very early photo; the sharp edges of the plywood are now rounded off, sanded smooth and painted. Likewise, the long bolts which are begging to snag any stray line, have been cut short. It's just possible to see the chute-mouth at the foot of the forestay in the pic below, where I first hoisted the asymm, using an oar as substitute for a bowsprit.
The far-better alternative for chute-making (as costly in its way, as McLube) seems to be a mesh-fabric called Phifertex, each metre of which costs £25. The asymmetric's luff is 21ft, so I reckon I'd need three metres of the fabric, running back to the cockpit floor. Hence I cheaped-out and used my old genoa, but I may yet conclude that if I don't use the right fabric, it's time and effort wasted.
Despite my incredible sloth and remarkable absence of progress, I am getting there. There'll be a wonderful Youtube sequence here when I finish and actually try it out afloat. Still won't feature a snuffer, though.
Iain, LW395, Daydream, DJE...I'm very grateful for your insights here. I do wish that I could point at the dates of earlier posts and shriek with laughter, remarking that my last entry in this thread (above) was very nearly two years ago, and that I have long since sorted out the spinnaker and chute, and that I now need no guidance...but you gentlemen know me better than that.
In my defence, let me say that I am now slightly closer to converting a big two/three man symmetric spinnaker dinghy into a singlehanded asymmetric version. If anyone asks why I don't just buy a Musto Skiff, it's because I don't want one - I'm very happy with the boat I have - I'd just like a pole-free spinnaker, too.
I recognised the potential difficulty with a chute-mouth being positioned behind the forestay, some time in 2016. I don't claim it cannot be handled this way, and it would certainly make the chute or tunnel infinitely easier to construct...
...but with my forestay based inches from the stem, I decided to build a biggish plywood platform that would bolt to the Osprey's thick gunwales ahead of the forestay; one side supporting the chute-mouth, the other supporting a U-bolt which will hold the bowsprit...
...it's not pretty, but I'm hopeful it will work. Much uglier, and harder to construct, is the spinnaker chute itself. I used 40mm plumbing pipe and a very tired old genoa whose fabric is likely to stick to the kite itself, when wet. I invested in a can of McLube and will spray chute and sail, thoroughly. I realise that the appearance is distressingly similar to a gaping supermarket carrier-bag...
...let me assure anybody who's appalled, that that's a very early photo; the sharp edges of the plywood are now rounded off, sanded smooth and painted. Likewise, the long bolts which are begging to snag any stray line, have been cut short. It's just possible to see the chute-mouth at the foot of the forestay in the pic below, where I first hoisted the asymm, using an oar as substitute for a bowsprit.
The far-better alternative for chute-making (as costly in its way, as McLube) seems to be a mesh-fabric called Phifertex, each metre of which costs £25. The asymmetric's luff is 21ft, so I reckon I'd need three metres of the fabric, running back to the cockpit floor. Hence I cheaped-out and used my old genoa, but I may yet conclude that if I don't use the right fabric, it's time and effort wasted.
Despite my incredible sloth and remarkable absence of progress, I am getting there. There'll be a wonderful Youtube sequence here when I finish and actually try it out afloat. Still won't feature a snuffer, though.
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