Are ex-Military Types better Skippers?

[chinita]

So that means that in your chosen career you either made it to the very top or consider yourself a failure. Eager to know what it was you did before retirement...I had to check your profile to make sure we didn't have Sir Richard Branson in the house...

Late Entry army officers or their RAF equivalent, Branch Officers, are recruited from the Enlisted ranks, and are people who may have already served 20+ years in the ranks. Often they made it to Warrant Officer (i.e. the highest non-commissioned rank you can achieve) before applying for their Commission. More often than not these people are in their late 30's or early 40's and as a consequence Major/Squadron Leader is likely to be the highest rank they can realistically achieve due to the relatively short time remaining until formal retirement age. Moreover, many 'cap badges' do not allow LE officers to progress above Major (such as the Royal Signals) unless they transfer to the 'regular' stream.

People also leave the Service as a Major, Squadron Leader or Lieutenant Commander in their mid-to-late 30's having joined the military straight from university, moving on to make full careers afterwards. What, then has a person's rank on exiting the Service got to do with their ability to lead, let alone skipper a yacht?

Sigh.

One thing I have learned incidentally; no-one is 'only' anything...

Andy

+1

As one of those failed Majors I regularly used to sail on our Regimental yacht. Skippered by a corporal, myself and a serving Brigadier as watch leaders and a motley bunch of wives/girlfriends as crew.

The boat was basic with six berths - but we always used to bump up the numbers to eight to cut costs. Justification being that at least two will be on watch!

A couple of years ago I took my big steel boat back to UK from Portugal. My only crew was my cousin, an ex Staff Sergeant, mountain leadership and jungle warfare instructor. Fit as a butcher's dog. He was seasick for the entire trip. He stood every watch, surviving on dry bread, water and cigarettes.

We passed Ushant and screamed along channel in Northerly F9.

Jumping on to the pontoon at Lymington he lit up, sniffed the wind and said 'Well, it wasn't too bad was it?'.

I can't think of anybody else I would rather ship with.

 

[Grumpybear]

So that means that in your chosen career you either made it to the very top or consider yourself a failure. Eager to know what it was you did before retirement...I had to check your profile to make sure we didn't have Sir Richard Branson in the house...

Late Entry army officers or their RAF equivalent, Branch Officers, are recruited from the Enlisted ranks, and are people who may have already served 20+ years in the ranks. Often they made it to Warrant Officer (i.e. the highest non-commissioned rank you can achieve) before applying for their Commission. More often than not these people are in their late 30's or early 40's and as a consequence Major/Squadron Leader is likely to be the highest rank they can realistically achieve due to the relatively short time remaining until formal retirement age. Moreover, many 'cap badges' do not allow LE officers to progress above Major (such as the Royal Signals) unless they transfer to the 'regular' stream.

People also leave the Service as a Major, Squadron Leader or Lieutenant Commander in their mid-to-late 30's having joined the military straight from university, moving on to make full careers afterwards. What, then has a person's rank on exiting the Service got to do with their ability to lead, let alone skipper a yacht?

Sigh.

One thing I have learned incidentally; no-one is 'only' anything...

Andy

+ another. I left the Service as a Lt Cdr. If that makes me a failure I can live with it. The men considered better than me have brought us such triumphs as the future carrier programme, ASTUTE, Type 45 destroyers at double the approved unit cost, Type 23 frigates that couldn't do the job they were designed for, the appalling Marlin ASW helicopter, etc, etc.

And their comrades in the other services have overseen procurement disasters like the Apache, the SA80 rifles, the Bowman radios, the Eurofighter, the Nimrods AEW and MRA4, the A400M transport etc.

And then there are the non procurement decisions: cutting the infantry in the middle of an anti guerilla war in mountains; cutting the Harrier force to maintain pointless Mach 2 whizz jets; the utter failure to provide the army with a worthwhile helicopter and heavy lift capability, etc, etc.

 

[capnsensible]

+ another. I left the Service as a Lt Cdr. If that makes me a failure I can live with it. The men considered better than me have brought us such triumphs as the future carrier programme, ASTUTE, Type 45 destroyers at double the approved unit cost, Type 23 frigates that couldn't do the job they were designed for, the appalling Marlin ASW helicopter, etc, etc.

And their comrades in the other services have overseen procurement disasters like the Apache, the SA80 rifles, the Bowman radios, the Eurofighter, the Nimrods AEW and MRA4, the A400M transport etc.

And then there are the non procurement decisions: cutting the infantry in the middle of an anti guerilla war in mountains; cutting the Harrier force to maintain pointless Mach 2 whizz jets; the utter failure to provide the army with a worthwhile helicopter and heavy lift capability, etc, etc.

Top drip. Bravo Zulu

 

[seadog30]

I am always reminded of the old quote -

There are three things that are useless on a sail boat

1) a suitcase

2) an umberella

3) a naval officer

In 40 years on small sail boats I have seen no reason to question this

 

[Grumpybear]

I am always reminded of the old quote -

There are three things that are useless on a sail boat

1) a suitcase

2) an umberella

3) a naval officer

In 40 years on small sail boats I have seen no reason to question this

I thought item 1 was a wheelbarrow. A suitcase might be useful for the money you need to run a boat.....

 

[capnsensible]

I am always reminded of the old quote -

There are three things that are useless on a sail boat

1) a suitcase

2) an umberella

3) a naval officer

In 40 years on small sail boats I have seen no reason to question this

How many Naval Officers have you actually been to sea with? Just wonderin....

 

[ProMariner]

2 solutions to any problem:

1. Get up earlier in the morning

2. Shout louder, with a greater sense of authority.

 

[grumpy_o_g]

So, as a Corporal, RAF (Ret'd) would I be a bigger failure than him or not?

 

[grumpy_o_g]

They call themselves a "force" in the police and I suppose they have the same sort of command and control habits. My best sailing pal is ex plod and stopping him becoming the de facto skipper even on my boat is difficult if not impossible. I used to run a big business so I guess I'm used to leadership but its very different in a business environment where you cannot simply issue orders in the same way. So I tend to sit back and let him do the macho bit - he's competent so we do achieve the end result which after all is what management is about. Results. In that sense he's being managed even if he doesnt realise it.

Oddly enough one of the things I still struggle with 25 years later is the way many managers simply cannot bear to have their "orders" questioned. I always found that there was a great willingness in the RAF at least to listen to any suggestions of a better way, provided you weren't pushing your luck.

 

[grumpy_o_g]

I think the phrase "Military Types" means by definition they aren't. Military types to me means Colonel Blimps, etc. Ex-military is something different and you may well have sailed with people and not even known they were ex-military. As others have said it's down to the individual.

 

[cimo]

I was in Poole a couple of years ago. Bloke on his boat with his wife and kids. He wasn't ex military he was still in the navy. Gave orders to his wife in a way that I would be far too scared to give to mine. She would likely give me a clip round the ear. His wife didn't seem to mind but it didn't look or sound like too much fun on his boat. He constantly explained to her why and how she had done something wrong in a very clipped fashion.

he sounds like an arse.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Nothing like making generalisations to massage one's prejudices is there? With respect that's what appears to be happening in many of the comments.

The answer is that there are all sorts of people in the military and all sorts of people in civilian life and Ive met some complete dicks from both camps.

Perhaps the reason people notice some of the bad examples of poor skippers from the military is because they fit the stereotype? I have served for some senior officers who were complete prats - but I've also served with a fair few more where you quickly understood exactly why they had been promoted. They were smart and effective and their people would have followed them anywhere.

For all the 'military' bad skippers I've seen, there have been a fair few from the civi sector. Of course some military people throw their weight around inappropriately but they don't last long or get promoted in any of the sectors I am involved in. Rank carries weight and of course people will obey orders but real leadership is about inspiring people to do things they sometimes don't want to do. Civilians seem to think that the military works on some brainless unthinking obedience culture. Like everywhere else, the best leadership inspires people to be part of the team and work together for the common goal.

If military leadership and training is so valueless how come so many industries jump to employ ex military people? (Something about many ex military people turning up on time, be reasonably turned out and polite, will get on with the job, will be organised and show initiative etc etc which are all good attributes when looking for an employee?) *But see note below.

PS I wouldn't hold Chay Blythe up to be a good example of ex military made good in sailing. Chay Blythe (although good at publicity and grit and bloody-minded determination) failed his Yacht master. Although that in itself is neither here nor there (Yachtmaster isn't the be all and end all of sailing) I remember talking to the person who was tasked with examining him (long after Chay Blythe became famous and had sailed round the world etc) and the whole thing was a nightmare and I'm not saying any more for fear of legal action...

* With respect to those who served in the Army, the recruitment and system by which some infantry cannot serve more than a few years if they don't get promoted or learn a trade etc means that there will always be a lot of ex army (usually infantry) who have served a few years and end up on the streets or back in the shabby and slightly underclass world they were recruited from.

 

[[70521]]

Nothing like making generalisations to massage one's prejudices is there? With respect that's what appears to be happening in many of the comments.

The answer is that there are all sorts of people in the military and all sorts of people in civilian life and Ive met some complete dicks from both camps...

Hear, hear well said John

If there was a Like button, of the Facebook type, I'd hit that.

 

[davidej]

So that means that in your chosen career you either made it to the very top or consider yourself a failure. Eager to know what it was you did before retirement...I had to check your profile to make sure we didn't have Sir Richard Branson in the house...

Late Entry army officers or their RAF equivalent, Branch Officers, are recruited from the Enlisted ranks, and are people who may have already served 20+ years in the ranks. Often they made it to Warrant Officer (i.e. the highest non-commissioned rank you can achieve) before applying for their Commission. More often than not these people are in their late 30's or early 40's and as a consequence Major/Squadron Leader is likely to be the highest rank they can realistically achieve due to the relatively short time remaining until formal retirement age. Moreover, many 'cap badges' do not allow LE officers to progress above Major (such as the Royal Signals) unless they transfer to the 'regular' stream.

People also leave the Service as a Major, Squadron Leader or Lieutenant Commander in their mid-to-late 30's having joined the military straight from university, moving on to make full careers afterwards. What, then has a person's rank on exiting the Service got to do with their ability to lead, let alone skipper a yacht?

Sigh.

One thing I have learned incidentally; no-one is 'only' anything...

Andy

Sorry- didn't mean to be offensive.

I know bu**er-all about the military and that was just a comment picked up from another ex-officer.

Would consider my career to have ended in failure -got stuck firmly in the 'marzipan layer' ie above the cake but below the icing.

 

[epervier]

I didn't vote 'cause there wasn't a "Of course they are" choice,





dons flak jacket and tin hat waits for incoming

 

[ProMariner]

Only 2 ways to sort out any perceived problem:

1. Get up earlier in the morning.

2. Speak louder, with more authority.

Any dissent will meet the harshest of penalties.

By order,
Lord of Her Britannic Majesties Forces, UK and abroad.

 

[macd]

Chay Blyth I'm not so sure about.

That might depend on what you want your skipper for. I've met Blyth once and found him surprisingly calm and avuncular, although I can only guess at what he's like on a boat. But if the sh*t really hit the fan, you'd probably want someone like that on board for his sheer never-say-die bloody-mindedness. (Which I suppose begs the question of how likely he'd have been to get you in the poo in the first place.)

 

[Sandyman]

+ another. I left the Service as a Lt Cdr. If that makes me a failure I can live with it. The men considered better than me have brought us such triumphs as the future carrier programme, ASTUTE, Type 45 destroyers at double the approved unit cost, Type 23 frigates that couldn't do the job they were designed for, the appalling Marlin ASW helicopter, etc, etc.

And their comrades in the other services have overseen procurement disasters like the Apache, the SA80 rifles, the Bowman radios, the Eurofighter, the Nimrods AEW and MRA4, the A400M transport etc.

And then there are the non procurement decisions: cutting the infantry in the middle of an anti guerilla war in mountains; cutting the Harrier force to maintain pointless Mach 2 whizz jets; the utter failure to provide the army with a worthwhile helicopter and heavy lift capability, etc, etc.

Hey come on you know as well as I do that we have the best armed forces in the world equipped with the most modern up to date weapons available anywhere. We know this to be true because the pollios keep telling us so. After all, we can't have our forces going into action in the knowledge they face an opposition with far superior weapons, can we ? Not good for morale when the action stations alarm sounds where you know there is a good chance you are going to die.

 

[Grumpybear]

Hey come on you know as well as I do that we have the best armed forces in the world equipped with the most modern up to date weapons available anywhere. We know this to be true because the pollios keep telling us so. After all, we can't have our forces going into action in the knowledge they face an opposition with far superior weapons, can we ? Not good for morale when the action stations alarm sounds where you know there is a good chance you are going to die.

Do you know anyone on the front line who believes all his kit is A1? The people I know are pretty realistic.

And the brass have an interest in suppressing dissent, to ensure their second careers with BAeS etc. the real problem is that the defence procurement budget exists to preserve civilian defence jobs, not to arm the Armed Forces. If it did the latter we could buy kit that worked from the USA, and much more of it, and have more men and women on the front line, and still save money.

PS aren't the French lucky the A400m is so late? If it had been on time we wouldn't have had the .C17s!

 

[Sandyman]

''Do you know anyone on the front line who believes all his kit is A1?''

The non informed lower deck ratings were certainly led to believe so. As a Senior Mech I knew my system was a bag of s**te, but it was not the done thing to question it or say so.
Following my experiences Down South I had a bust up with a two n half ringer which eventually brought about a parting of the waves for me & the RN. He was the very type of person you refer to in your previous post. He later went on to work on a long term project which ended similar to those you mention.
Not going to say further as for certain you will know him or heard of him. Probably one of the worst person's ever to put on a Naval uniform.......................unfortunately for him his father agreed and he never got another ring.

''The people I know are pretty realistic''.

Sure but I doubt many of them are /were lower deck ?

''And the brass have an interest in suppressing dissent, to ensure their second careers with BAeS etc. the real problem is that the defence procurement budget exists to preserve civilian defence jobs, not to arm the Armed Forces. If it did the latter we could buy kit that worked from the USA, and much more of it, and have more men and women on the front line, and still save money''.

Indeed that is so, and has been for a long time. Should also consider the jobs of pen pushing jotter blotter civvis at the MoD.

''PS aren't the French lucky the A400m is so late? If it had been on time we wouldn't have had the .C17s!''

Exactly