Are ex-Military Types better Skippers?

[epervier]

Crab uncovered, the truth from the front:

http://www.arrse.co.uk/wiki/The_Royal_Air_Force

Great read, worth wasting a few minutes, gives a laugh to an otherwise cheerless winters day.

 

[grumpy_o_g]

RAF officers have to command while sitting down (usually at the front of a warplane). They lack the freedom of the Navy and Army where their officers (including the non-commissioned ones) can stroll about kicking their subordinates into position. RAF officers do it with charisma, example, and leadership.

No offence intended.

In the Army the officers send the troops in to battle
In the Navy officers go into battle with the troops
In the RAF the troops send the officers in to battle

I know which set up I like best...

 

[grumpy_o_g]

.....and using Christian Names.

You lost me with that one?

 

[john_morris_uk]

I agree - completely lost on me too.

 

[viago]

raf officers use their colleagues' christian names unlike army officers and possibly naval officers me thinks

 

[chinita]

In the Army the officers send the troops in to battle
In the Navy officers go into battle with the troops
In the RAF the troops send the officers in to battle

I know which set up I like best...

Perhaps you would like to repeat that rather incredible ditty to the families of the Army Officers on this list:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-10629358

 

[skyflyer]

Perhaps you would like to repeat that rather incredible ditty to the families of the Army Officers on this list:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-10629358

Hey lighten up - will you be apologising for all the comments you have (surely) made about retreating Italians, Cowardly french armies etc etc

I think we know what he meant - and I doubt he or anyone else has aanything other than respect for the guys in the thick of it -whatever rank.

 

[chinita]

I think we know what he meant - and I doubt he or anyone else has aanything other than respect for the guys in the thick of it -whatever rank.

I beg to differ; I could name two active posters who will jump on any bandwagon to cast scorn on the military - particularly the Army.

Incredibly, there are still people around who seriously believe that officers behave like General Melchett and Captain Darling and that troops in Afghanistan are still Lions led by Donkeys.

I would not have made any comment on the post if it had been in any way true (or even mildly amusing). But it was not; hence the offence I took

 

[Grumpybear]

I beg to differ; I could name two active posters who will jump on any bandwagon to cast scorn on the military - particularly the Army.

Incredibly, there are still people around who seriously believe that officers behave like General Melchett and Captain Darling and that troops in Afghanistan are still Lions led by Donkeys.

I would not have made any comment on the post if it had been in any way true (or even mildly amusing). But it was not; hence the offence I took

The "lions led by donkeys" was actually made up by the late Alan Clark to justify the title of his book about WWII back in the sixties. He initially climed that it was coined by the German general Ludendorff, but eventually admitted his deceit.

Sadly, much of the received wisdom about the Great War, and about British leadership, is as untrue and dishonest as this.

It is refreshing to see that there is at last a growing school of modern scholarship based on the facts rather than the self serving propaganda of genuine but naive pacifists and a few officers who, though personally brave, regarded the war as a monstrous intrusion into their bohemian peacetime lives.

 

[prr]

I

The "lions led by donkeys" was actually made up by the late Alan Clark to justify the title of his book about WWII back in the sixties.

I thought It came from the Crimea War, when someone with enough dosh could buy himself a commission. One guy, an officer in the Hussars claimed any officer of the Hussars who lived past 30 was a blackguard!
The thing is, this expresion could apply to most wars involving Brit Military pre. WW 2

 

[AMCD300]

I beg to differ; I could name two active posters who will jump on any bandwagon to cast scorn on the military - particularly the Army.

Incredibly, there are still people around who seriously believe that officers behave like General Melchett and Captain Darling and that troops in Afghanistan are still Lions led by Donkeys.

I would not have made any comment on the post if it had been in any way true (or even mildly amusing). But it was not; hence the offence I took

I think there may have been a few too many 'cliche' comments made on this thread...as someone once said, why let the truth get in the way of a good rumour.

Andy

 

[chinita]

I think there may have been a few too many 'cliche' comments made on this thread

Inevitable given the title of the thread.

 

[grumpy_o_g]

Perhaps you would like to repeat that rather incredible ditty to the families of the Army Officers on this list:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-10629358

It is quite possible many of them have already heard it and even laughed about it at the time just as all the airmen, solders and sailors who have died in service of their country may have done. It is humour, whether you find it amusing or not, and humour is one of the fundamentals of the Armed Forces as you must know. Please stop trying to take offence on behalf of other people. I've been with and supported bereaved relatives and lost friends myself on too many occasions to have any time for comments like yours.

 

[OGITD]

Can I take the 'Pi**'?

Partly because:

"Of all the branches of men in the forces there is none which shows more devotion and faces grimmer perils than the submariners."

"In each submarine there are men who, in the hour of emergency or peril at sea, can turn to each other. These men are ultimately responsible to themselves and each other for all aspects of operation of their submarine. They are the crew. They are the ship."

No one has done more to prevent conflict - no one has made a greater sacrifice for the cause for Peace - than you, America’s proud missile submarine family. You stand tall among our heroes of the Cold War.” (I was the UK's bit).

& I haven't been awarded a 'Bad-Boy' Tab ..... yet!....... Nat!! you're slacking!!!!!!

 

[capnsensible]

"In each submarine there are men who, in the hour of emergency or peril at sea, can turn to each other. These men are ultimately responsible to themselves and each other for all aspects of operation of their submarine. They are the crew.

This, actually is why you will find that the fore endys took over the washing machines and ran the underwater delvery of death with clean No 8 uniform. Ha.

 

[OGITD]

Nat! ... I'm at it again! ..... "selective quoting" ...... Bad-Boy Tab please!

Oh the delights of selective quoting.

why the fore endys took over the washing machines and ran the underwater delvery of death with clean No 8 uniform. Ha.

Because once at sea (on patrol) they had next to nak-all to occupy their time when on watch!

 

[robertj]

Nothing like making generalisations to massage one's prejudices is there? With respect that's what appears to be happening in many of the comments.

The answer is that there are all sorts of people in the military and all sorts of people in civilian life and Ive met some complete dicks from both camps.

Perhaps the reason people notice some of the bad examples of poor skippers from the military is because they fit the stereotype? I have served for some senior officers who were complete prats - but I've also served with a fair few more where you quickly understood exactly why they had been promoted. They were smart and effective and their people would have followed them anywhere.

For all the 'military' bad skippers I've seen, there have been a fair few from the civi sector. Of course some military people throw their weight around inappropriately but they don't last long or get promoted in any of the sectors I am involved in. Rank carries weight and of course people will obey orders but real leadership is about inspiring people to do things they sometimes don't want to do. Civilians seem to think that the military works on some brainless unthinking obedience culture. Like everywhere else, the best leadership inspires people to be part of the team and work together for the common goal.

If military leadership and training is so valueless how come so many industries jump to employ ex military people? (Something about many ex military people turning up on time, be reasonably turned out and polite, will get on with the job, will be organised and show initiative etc etc which are all good attributes when looking for an employee?) *But see note below.

PS I wouldn't hold Chay Blythe up to be a good example of ex military made good in sailing. Chay Blythe (although good at publicity and grit and bloody-minded determination) failed his Yacht master. Although that in itself is neither here nor there (Yachtmaster isn't the be all and end all of sailing) I remember talking to the person who was tasked with examining him (long after Chay Blythe became famous and had sailed round the world etc) and the whole thing was a nightmare and I'm not saying any more for fear of legal action...

* With respect to those who served in the Army, the recruitment and system by which some infantry cannot serve more than a few years if they don't get promoted or learn a trade etc means that there will always be a lot of ex army (usually infantry) who have served a few years and end up on the streets or back in the shabby and slightly underclass world they were recruited from.

John

What a brilliant post!
Starting so level headed and unbiased then ending on such a high lol!!

 

[john_morris_uk]

John

What a brilliant post!
Starting so level headed and unbiased then ending on such a high lol!!

Not sure which bit you are suggesting is 'high'. Regrettably the last comments re the ex infantry are entirely true. I'm not offering any criticism; merely observing the results of the way the system operates.

I remember discussing it with a senior army officer once who was incredulous that we retain Marines for 22 years whether they are promoted or not. "But that means you could have a 40 year old soldier in the ranks!" he expostulated. I replied, "That's right, so long as he passes his fitness tests he remains for 22 years from age 18." The senior officer was horrified and thought that they would end up with a load of barrack room lawyers if the army adopted a similar system. I didn't point out that it depends on the calibre of people you recruit as its generally acknowledged that Royal Marines make big efforts to cream off the very best applicants and by reason of the training end up with a very different product.

The army works a different system that relies on a steady supply of young men and women many of which are only expected to serve for a few years.

 

[capnsensible]

Once they have learned to play that instrument you need to keep them.

 

[Sandyman]

I beg to differ; I could name two active posters who will jump on any bandwagon to cast scorn on the military - particularly the Army.

Wonder if I am one of those two who you refer to

Some of my comments may be seen as criticising Navy/Army/Crabs, but my criticism is really against the MOD.

Good thread this. No time to comment further now. Later. (thats if I manage to log in )