Are Elegance boats any good? (includes some pics)

[Deleted User YDKXO]

SWMBO and I were out in Majorca for a day last week to inspect a couple of Ferrettis for sale. For various reasons that I won't go into on a public forum, it's unlikely we will pursue our interest in either of these boats. However, at the end of the day we had some spare time and drove over to Andraitx to look at Elegances and were shown a 2004 Elegance 64 for sale there.

For anyone that doesn't know Elegances, they were built in Taiwan by Horizon (a very large boatbuilding company) for the German company, Drettman, who sold them throughout Europe. Drettman went bust in 2010(?) and Elegances are now directly sold in Europe as Horizons by Horizon themselves. Elegances were semi-bespoke manufactured so the interiors were all different according to customer taste and some I've seen have looked fairly 'sudden' to say the least although this particular boat was quite restrained. The hulls seem to be semi displacement although according to the specs I've seen, they're all capable of 25-28kts max and cruising at about 20kts. They seem to be significantly heavier than planing boats of similar size (the E64 is 43t dry) and anecdotally they are supposed to be good sea boats. Anyone got any info on this?
I have to say straightaway that we wouldn't go for this particular boat either because of it's accommodation layout and the fact that it has a tender garage which I hate. During our time in the Med, we have of course noticed Elegances before and they appear to be big chunky boats but what I wasn't expecting to see was the standard of engineering on this boat and the general quality feel, things like this

Full standing height engine room with safety rails, both 12V and 240V lighting and what looks like excellent soundproofing. Engines are MAN 2840 V10 units giving 1050hp each driving through ZF V drive gearboxes

3 fuel tanks each with graduated sight gauges and feeding fuel through twin Racor filters. The total tank capacity is 4600 litres which is impressive for a boat of this size

Hydraulic oil tank for standard fit hydraulic bow and stern thrusters. Inverter and watermaker also standard fit

This is the hydraulic power pack for the pasarelle, lifting transom steps and tender garage door. What I liked was that it wasn't hidden away in a corner like on most boats I've seen but easily accessible on it's own plinth with a proper manual override. Note also the bank of valves to the right. These are control valves for the chilled water feeds from the aircon plants to each individual air handler; each valve is marked with a label indicating which cabin it feeds. There are 2 individual aircon plants fitted, each with it's own seawater pump feed so, in the event of one breaking down, the other can still provide cooling

and this is one of the reasons that I don't like tender garages. The E64 has 2 Onan gennies fitted as standard but one of them is hidden away under the garage along with the steering gear and I certainly wouldn't be squeezing myself under there on a regular basis (although there is supposed to be a removable hatch in the garage floor)

Overall though I was pretty impressed with this engine bay and generally by the chunky quality of the fittings on the boat. As I say we won't be considering this particular boat because of that tender garage and because it has 4 forward cabins with a forward master cabin and we are looking for a boat with a midships master cabin. But the question is whether this apparent quality is only skin deep or whether it is representative of a proper quality boat and should we be looking at other Elegances as well? Anyone know about these boats?

 

[volvopaul]

Hi mike, moving into the proper big league then!

I've always liked the Elegance range but I'm told there difficult to sell and drop money like a Saab car used to in the days.

However I'd say in this climate no boat will even think about making any return on your£££ .

If its space this size you want the med is full of this type of boat, when you get up in this volume of boat the running costs must be eyewatering especially if you have to pay companies to work on the boat.

The elegance looks well built as you described you get a lot there for your buck but whatever you buy it will drop in value like a stone.

Last year I looked at a fairline phantom 50 the owner had not had it long but had already got the boating bug and had bought am elegance about 70ft for he said about the same price as he'd paid for the phantom, it was twice the boat and was prepared to sell me the 50 including taking my princess here in the uk in part ex, desperate times then I'd say.

Be careful what you buy in this climate.

 

[volvopaul]

Oh , I've just got back from the island too, lots if boats for sale with virtually no owners around I've never seen the island so quiet , the locals said it too, pollenca and alcudia marinas quiet.

Elegance aside if you want something that size I'd buy a mainstream boat, I'd have thought a larger feretti would fit the bill.

 

[pan]

I did hear of a number of Elegances with osmosis problems in Mallorca, which Drettman had do deal with under warranty, don't know whether this had anything to do them folding.
Pan

 

[petem]

I've only ever been on one (at a boat show) but certainly got the impression of big boat fixtures and fittings. The one I saw had a weird art deco / asian styling that would not be to many UK buyers taste. Do you have pics of the interior?

Also intrigued what put you off the Ferretti's.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Be careful what you buy in this climate.

Thanks VP. Yes I am acutely aware that many boats we have looked at have been on the market for months if not years and whatever we buy has to be bought cheap if we are not to lose our shirts when we come to sell. Yes, another Ferretti is our default choice because we've already had 2 and liked them. As for why we didn't go for either of the ones we saw, see my reply to petem

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

I've only ever been on one (at a boat show) but certainly got the impression of big boat fixtures and fittings. The one I saw had a weird art deco / asian styling that would not be to many UK buyers taste. Do you have pics of the interior?

Also intrigued what put you off the Ferretti's.

Now got some more pics of the interior from SWMBO's Iphone (she does the frilly bits, I do the oily bits)

I can't be too explicit about what put me off the other Ferrettis because both are owned by Brits and marketed by Brit brokers but we went out there to see a F68 and a F72 from the early 2000s. The condition of the 68 was simply not as advertised and there seems to be some issue with it's VAT status which I won't go into here; also the previous owner had changed both gennies for reasons I found hard to believe. On the other hand, the 72 was in superb condition and a credit to its owner but I didn't realise until I got there that it had the older style mechanically controlled 1050hp MTU engines which I felt were a bit underpowered for the boat and might struggle with a heavily fouled hull and sterngear. We have another potential option on a F72 which has larger engines

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

I did hear of a number of Elegances with osmosis problems in Mallorca, which Drettman had do deal with under warranty, don't know whether this had anything to do them folding.
Pan

Pan thats v interesting info. Do you know when this was, which models were involved and how many boats were involved?

 

[MapisM]

I didn't realise until I got there that it had the older style mechanically controlled 1050hp MTU engines which I felt were a bit underpowered for the boat and might struggle with a heavily fouled hull and sterngear. We have another potential option on a F72 which has larger engines

LOL, here goes the boater who was interested in pootling, now looking for an un-stabilized boat and unhappy with 30kts or so.
Are you sure those MTU aren't actually 1150hp per side? Regardless, surely those 12V monsters would struggle even more, if you'd leave the mooring lines tied to the dock...!
Anyway, just in case the other boat with larger engines has the electronic 1300 MANs, gimme those non-electronic and "underpowered' MTUs any day of the week.
I'd actually pay more to have the latter than the first, but that's me of course.
Happy boathunting anyhow. If as the old saying goes boats are mostly enjoyed in two moments (buy and sell), you're having a lot of fun lately...

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

LOL, here goes the boater who was interested in pootling, now looking for an un-stabilized boat and unhappy with 30kts or so.
Are you sure those MTU aren't actually 1150hp per side? Regardless, surely those 12V monsters would struggle even more, if you'd leave the mooring lines tied to the dock...!
Anyway, just in case the other boat with larger engines has the electronic 1300 MANs, gimme those non-electronic and "underpowered' MTUs any day of the week.

Seriously I need some help here because I have zero experience of MTU or MAN engines . Yes you're right, the MTUs are 1150hp! I have heard good things about the MTUs. Are you saying they would be better than the electronically controlled MAN V10 or V12 engines? If so why? Is this your experience or or hearsay? Yes I will have to pootle all of these boats some of the time because I don't want to be feeding them fuel at a rate of 250 lph or whatever all the time

 

[MapisM]

Is this your experience or or hearsay?

Well, no first hand experience TBH. As you know, my own boats have never been in the V12 league...
...but I heard both owners and yards complaining about the reliability of the earlier (and also not so earlier, actually) electronic MANs, whilst MTUs are unanimously considered bomb proof.

Mind, for slow speed cruising, the key issue remains the stabilization, anyway.
Even with such a big boat, when cruising at 10 kts or so - unless the sea is dead calm - the difference between having some mean of stabilizing the roll or not is like day and night.
Again, that's me, but fwiw I'd rate stabs waaay more important than the last few ponies/knots @ wot, which is totally meaningless in practice.
I'm aware that it's difficult to find stabs in 10+ year old planing boats, but at least I'd check beforehand the feasibility of retrofitting them.
Which, depending on your preference (gyro or fins), involves different criterias.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Again, that's me, but fwiw I'd rate stabs waaay more important than the last few ponies/knots @ wot, which is totally meaningless in practice.
I'm aware that it's difficult to find stabs in 10+ year old planing boats, but at least I'd check beforehand the feasibility of retrofitting them.
Which, depending on your preference (gyro or fins), involves different criterias.

No I disagree, the last few knots is an issue on a Med based planing boat. I have found you can easily lose 5-7kts in a few summer months which means that on a boat only capable of 27kts max, you're struggling to cruise at 20kts and may even struggle to get on the plane. This is what I found with my previous Ferretti 46. In contrast my present Ferretti 53 is capable of 31kts and never feels as though it is struggling to cruise at 20kts however fouled it is. But thanks for the comment on the MTUs; I heard the same 'bombproof' comment from somebody else so maybe I should look again at this boat. Stabs is an issue for another day maybe even another boat. Our long term aim is still some kind of trawler yacht for more distant cruising. The idea is to trade up to a bigger Med style boat whilst the market is down and keep her maybe 3-4yrs

 

[MapisM]

Aha, understood.
But I disagree on your disagreement, if I may say so.
If your hull/gear is fouled enough to make you loose 5-7 kts, you would pay the cost of the lift and powerwash in just a couple of refilling...
Not to mention that this is the only way to avoid running the engines way above their correct load curve.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

If your hull/gear is fouled enough to make you loose 5-7 kts, you would pay the cost of the lift and powerwash in just a couple of refilling...

I did. I used to pay a diver €250 a time to clean my hull and sterngear 4 times a season when we berthed in Palma which was cheaper than a lift out. Still a PITA and I'd rather not have to do it

 

[jimmy_the_builder]

Ref MTU's, Hurricane has them in his P67, very pleased with them afaik. To the extent that he went on the factory servicing course, and I believe is now a qualified service engineer. Might be worth a pm to get him on this thread?

Cheers
Jimmy

 

[Nick_H]

Ref MTU's, Hurricane has them in his P67, very pleased with them afaik. To the extent that he went on the factory servicing course, and I believe is now a qualified service engineer. Might be worth a pm to get him on this thread?

Cheers
Jimmy

Why not go the whole hog, there's a 2006 P67 available through PMYS at a fairly keen offer price

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

To the extent that he went on the factory servicing course, and I believe is now a qualified service engineer.

Is he cheap?

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Why not go the whole hog, there's a 2006 P67 available through PMYS at a fairly keen offer price

Yup, I've seen that one already but for reasons best known to her, SWMBO is not keen on Princesses. Something to do with the seats on the 435 and 470 we once owned making her backside sore. Me, I think the P67 is an excellent boat but there's no arguing with SWMBOs, especially not the one I've got, but I'm sure you know how it goes

 

[Hurricane]

We are berthed right now next to an Elegance of a similar size
I'll get some pics for you to compare but both our P67 and the Elegance are stern berthed so comparison pics would be mostly stern based.

As far as MTUs are concerned, ours are CR2000s (M93s in fact) which are the later design.
I didn't recognise those engines in the above post
Everything I've heard (and my experience) is that you can't buy much better than MTU - and I've heard "bomb proof" said before.
Our CR2000s are continuously rated which (as we all know) is way more than we actually need.
Service interval is good as well - 2 years or 500 hours between services if you use the correct lubricants - even more if you use really expensive oils.
MTU also produce a "Fluids and Oils Specification" which categorises all oils on the market into 3 categories.
We use Category 2 oils (Shell Rimula in fact) which covers us for 2 years.

As JTB says, MTU offered me a one week course learning all about our engines.
Fantastic experience which I'm sure they would repeat for others if you ask - not sure if it would be any good if the engines were older than the CR2000 range.
CR2000 means 2 litres per cylinder - ours are V8 but they do V10, V12 and V16 models
In their full range, MTU offer CR4000 and, yes, and an 8000 at 8 litres per cylinder!!!
Big stuff
Ours are amongst the smallest that MTU supply!! - (Cr 2000 V8 at 1200HP)

 

[Hurricane]

Friends came out today but left UK really early so are catching up on some sleep before dinner tonight.
BTW - Deleted User - we love that restaurant that you recommended - going again tonight - our friend is a retired butcher so just up his street.
Probably off on the anchor tomorrow - weather getting better.

Anyway back to the point - I have some time whilst everyone is asleep!!

Some stern views comparing an Elegance and a P67

The Elegance has one of those screens - in fact I made one this season for ours (had it up earlier but took it down after lunch) - an idea I pinched from NickH and something I saw in an advert.
Didn't realise it was a common thing to do - we don't usually frequent these posh places!!

Anyway, some bow shots

And some Flybridge shots - sorry about our washing frame!!!!

Hope this is interesting - the Elegance is very slightly shorter but from what I can see may have a larger interior