Are Ben/Jen/Bavs really all that bad?

For me the most interesting thing about this thread

was not any new discovery on the merits or otherwise of these boats, but rather the intensity of the reactions to what I thought was a rather mild and obvious comment on my part: ie., that BenJenBavs are not as good as a more traditional hull shape when sailing to windward in a blow.

I wonder if a post on the Classic Boats forum suggesting that traditional boats have smaller interiors than AWB's would provoke similar indignation? /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif After this experience, I don't think I dare try!
 
Re: For me the most interesting thing about this thread

I think the problem is Simon, that once again, the owner of an older boat (with a good pedigree) questions the safety/build quality/sailing ability etc etc of the modern production boat. Why do you owners of these "old timers" keep feeling the need to do that?? Does it make you feel better, are you secretly envious of those that have more expensive boats?? We could have Contessa 32's if we so wished, but you guys just don't seem to grasp the fact we Ben/Jen/Bav owners simply don't want one. I guess that's why we get frustrated at this rather silly and pointless ongoing debate.

We AWB owners, and there are many, many thousands of us throughout the World, are not all totally stupid, and we know that there are a lot of more expensive, perhaps more rugged boats out there that ARE of better quality etc. From my perspective, I spent £75K on a new Bavaria 36two years ago, fully equipped with just about everything you could think of. I could actually have afforded an HR 36 (now 37), but at over £200K for the same size of boat, that will never stray too far from the UK, why would I?? As for the bav, it's been totally fault free, and for my type of use, is perfect

This subject will I'm sure drag on and on - we AWB owners are totally fed up with it, which is why you got the answers you seem surprised about. You chaps just keep upsetting us by hinting that our pride and joy(s) are crap!!

Have a good season, nevertheless!

Cheers

Mike N
 
Re: For me the most interesting thing about this thread

You completely ignored my response to this. It would appear that your purpose in asking the question was not to seek knowledge but to broadcast your somewhat myopic view of the windward benefits of a small wet boat with limited accomodation... and I have raced one so I know it a little bit about them!
 
Re: For me the most interesting thing about this thread

I didn't mean to insult anyone else's boat, I very much hope that everyone enjoys their boats, merely wished to introduce a little balance, as the other reponses were wholly pro-. No doubt many hesitated to express what they felt because they sensed the fury of the reaction to even a mild and obvious comment. Clearly there are many who prefer non-BenJenBavs (including incidentally many BenJenBav owners that I have spoken to), but no one was putting the other side of the coin in the reponses. Seems to me that they were afraid.

Each type of boat has its advantages and disadvantages. I would very happily admit that the Contessa is wet to windward and that traditional hull shapes (incl. the Contessa) have smaller accommodation, and that Contessas etc. are very expensive compared to BenJenBavs. I would also very happily admit that for the reasons that you propose a Bav may be better for you than an HR.

I pointed out a disadvantage that I would think should be fairly self-evident and uncontroversial (windward performance in strong winds). I also mentioned why I personally wouldn't (and didn't) buy one (namely the aesthetics of the sailing experience). The latter point is a personal rather than an objective one, and for those who do not feel that way, that's great.

What is amazing is the touchiness of the responses, which suggest that any kind of balanced discussion of the subject is impossible. Now I understand why I was the only one who felt like expressing what I'm sure many were thinking!
 
Re: For me the most interesting thing about this thread

I'm sorry if I ignored your response. But looking down the thread I can't see any of your posts that i didn't respond to, so I'm not sure which bit you mean.

I think the expression "myopic view" is a little unfortunate and offensive, but is a good example of what I was saying about people's reactions to my rather mild statements. Everyone's view is "myopic" in that we all speak from our own experience.

Of course the Contessa's wet to windward, even by 'traditional boat' standards, and I might even accept your cramped accommodation point (though I love the interior for different reasons).

I didn't find your "easing the mainsheet" argument very persuasive. The BenJens (I haven't sailed bavs) that behaved like dogs to windward when I sailed them I fully admit may be down to my own incompetence. Also BenJen owners who have had the same experince as me (I can think of 3 off-hand, 2 of them were yachtmaster examiners who owned such boats as part of their (unrelated) sea schools) probably didn't know their own boats well. But having tacked to windward against such boats in strong winds many, many times, they are always either left behind or are even struggling. Only those around 38'+ can do anything like keep up. I can't believe that ALL of the crews that I encountered sailing the other boats were incompetent.

Secondly, as I'm not the best sailor in the world, I need a boat that will help me to sail her, not one where I have to play the mainsheet in every gust like a dinghy, especially while singlehanded, it would be WAY beyond my capabilities of endurance, to sit on the mainsheet while making myself tea, navigate etc.
 
p.s.

Looking at your response again I think you may be labouring under a misapprehension - it wasn't me who "asked the question" it was twodragons. I merely put the non-BenJenBav owner viewpoint. I did not put any question at all so was not "seeking knowledge" as you say.

Of course any knowledge picked up by chance along the way is always welcome /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Re: For me the most interesting thing about this thread

Simon, what you do not seem to appreciate is that many of us AWB owners have sailed, and indeed owned, boats before. We are not, as you seem to imply, ignorant of the choices available to us, and have purchased boats based on a careful apraisal of the expected type and frequency of usage. I also considered Storms, S31s and Dehler 34s, along with other new boats. Each boat had its own merits, but untimately the decision went in favour of a new boat, an Oceanis 331. I cannot, like Nicho, say that the boat has been faultless, but the manufacturing defects discovered have been attended to. The sailing characteristics of the boat have surpassed my expectations, which, following a very impressive test sail in lively conditions, were already very high. The 331 is capable of some ridiculously quick passage times, for a boat of its size and type, and I am sure that many of the other newer designs can make similar claims. It has not shied away from boisterous conditions, infact, has jimi has suggested, when trimmed correctly it will go to windward very well.

If we ever buy another boat we will make a similar evaluation and, wallet willing, something like an IP will probably best suit our future sailing vision. It won't go to windward like a Contessa, but it will deliver the goods overall.

Enjoy the Contessa and we, I hope, will continue to enjoy our Bennie.
 
Re: For me the most interesting thing about this thread

That's great, I'm very glad that your new boat is such a success. I think that we can agree "It won't go to windward like a Contessa, but it will deliver the goods overall". Each kind of design has many pluses and minuses. What has rather astonished me is that other people in this thread are not even prepared to countenance the bearest mention of any minuses.

I had not intention of implying that you or anyone else was ignorant of the choices available, or made the choice blind, it would not even occur to me that this might be the case. I incidentally too was looking amongst other boats at the Storm before buying (in the end it came second in my list of choices before the Contessa).

But twodragons was asking some advice, and he was getting a VERY one-sided view. I still don't think that the responses to this thread have barely started to address the issues involved. Which is a shame because anyone who is thinking of buying a boat has been denied the opportunity of a discussion of the pros and cons of each type (and their ARE pros and cons to each type).
 
Re: For me the most interesting thing about this thread

OK then what are the major pro's & cons in your view? You mention windward performance, lets park that one because it is arguable whether on balance its a real difference. I'll set you off, motion comfort when beating in heavyweather, perhaps a stronger argument than performance? However if you spend to spebd your sailing career beating to windward in heavy weather, I admire you!
 
Re: For me the most interesting thing about this thread

the thing about these two (jimi & steve) is that they are tactically very good sailors and are adept at extracting performance in unsuitable conditions whereas those of us in "sturdier" craft tend to bash on .... I think they forget how good they are ....

of course, when you do have to "bash on", the differences do become apparent ...
 
Re: For me the most interesting thing about this thread

What is this myth that a Contessa goes to windward seemingly better than anything else especially in heavy weather? There are plenty of race boats and cruiser/racers that will outpace a Contessa even in heavy weather, if they didn't everyone would still be racing Co32s and nothing else.

In a previous response I reported being able to better Co32s upwind in an Elizabethan 30 Half Tonner of similar vintage, but even then both were left behind by the likes of Scampis and in those days the Scampi was pretty radical. I have also easily passed a Co32 upwind in heavy weather in my old Laurent Giles Westerly 33 Centre Cockpit Ketch -how cruisy can you get! My current Jeanneau Sun Legende 41 is a Doug Peterson design, the class original was 'Legende' a French Admirals Cup Team boat, rest well assured that we EAT Contessas and the likes for nibbles going upwind or down in any weather and what is more we don't get wet doing it. Our norm upwind for example is around 7kts and 28degs Apparent, we can even go closer to as much as 22 degs albeit down a knot in speed). We go upwind in up to F5 at 7kts WITH THE SPRAYHOOD DOWN and with a DRY cockpit. Above F5 some assistance from the sprayhood avoids any need for wet weather gear or boots etc which in fact come out these days mostly only for rainy days. Oh and yes we can if stupid enough go upwind in a full gale, we can also keep going in the lightest of breeze that might have a Co32 turning on the motor. Did I say we can motor too, forwards AND backwards? Cruise at 6.7kts at just 2,000rpm, flat out at 8.5kts. Oh and no we don't need a full crew, just me and my diminutive SWMBO, Grandma to 6.

The mythical 'build quality' of older or expensive marques bears some scrutiny too, many had several problems resulting in Mk2/Mk3/Mk4 even MK5 reincarations. I am remembering Co32s requiring extra hull stiffening forwards to prevent hull cracking over the forward bulheads, or Nicholson 35s where an engines had to be dismantled to take them out when a recall was needed. Even modern day Starlight 39s from Bowman that suffered severe hull delamination or Swans that had a health warning put out about rudder defects.

This is a little like the argument that they don't make them like they used to for cars and the hankering for the old days of an MGB or a Lotus 7 or a Mini Cooper S type. Well you know some years back I got to try a 1275 Mini Cooper S like I used to Autocross/Rally drive in my youth and guess what? It was slow, unbelievably uncomfortable and very noisy by comparison even to a Ford Escort! Times move on.

You would be correct in filing this as yet another spirited defence of AWBs. We have spent too long listening to the blind prejudices of a minority on the forums who chose to spout the same brainwashed theories of old. Not all AWBs are good nor are they all bad, any more than all traditional marques or 'quality' ones are, there is good and bad in all types and to an extent that depends on what features you are looking for. Just take each one on it's merits, just as would have happened when the likes of the Co32 were the newcomers on the block.

All the above notwithstanding I still think the Co32 is one of the prettiest boats ever. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Re: For me the most interesting thing about this thread

I would put the pluses and minuses as follows. I am not trying to be very objective, just expressing my subjective views, but doing so as honestly as I can, including both advantages and disadvantages, so don't be surprised that on balance the Contessa-style boat comes out on top! After all, I put my money where my mouth is by buying one. Owners of BenJenBavs can (and no doubt will) put the BenJenBav case better than I can.

1. Sorry, but windward performance I can't leave aside because I would still say that the difference is huge. Will just have to put a note that WeeJimi does not agree. For me it is of vital significance. It saved my bacon on several occasions, last time was this season beating my way out of the Gulf of Finland against a gale with no ports of refuge, where the boat behaved like a dream /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

2. Connected with 1., but also a more general point: the Contessa (and I presume, but can't confirm, similar types of designs) really looks after her crew. being a lunatic who not only suffers on occasion from seasickness, but also sails reasonable distances some of it singlehanded, it would be dangerous for me to have a boat that did not put her shoulder down and get on with it when the wind blows up and I need to reserve my energy for making food, tea, keeping a look out, taking in reefs in good time.

3. Against the argument that 2. is not typical sailing, I would say that for less experienced sailors (can't call myself very experienced either, but more experienced than some) or for more experienced sailors but sailing with families, shorter trips can be equally challenging, and inexperienced sailors need all the help from the boat that they can get when they put themselves in situations (as they inevitably will) that are a bit out of control.

Because of 1,2, 3 I would say that a BenJenBav boat is more suitable where there is a large and experienced crew, it is less suitable for either (a) families and/or people with less experience or (b) those going a long way who need lots of help from the boat. I would go so far as to say that, if regularly sailing with more than 3 or 4 people, some of whom have plenty of experience, the BenJenBav has a lot to recommend it

4. Light/medium airs performance: up to something like 16 kts, wind the BenJenbavs are at an overall advantage, especially downwind. One thing that I noticed however was that on a Contessa my perception of what a strong wind is indefinably changed, ie. so that I might set off for a long trip with a F7 or even 8 forecast where I would not have countenanced it on a less forgiving boat.

5. Interior (use in harbour): 1970's interiors can be dank and poky, with lots of plywood etc. But a more traditional shape boat with a nicely appointed interior with pleasant woodwork can have a cosiness to the interior that is very "Riddle of the Sands". My Contessa, for example, has lovely woodwork inside and a bright interior (helped by an additional skylight), and I would say that the interior of the boat is one of the aspects that gives me most satisfaction and pride. Personally I prefer this to volume interiors, and am willing to forego volume, but this is subjective. The Contessa bunks are not very long and I would say that it has a perfect interior for short people. Tall people suffer. BenJenBavs have showers, which is a clear advantage. On the other hand, they consume so much water that they can only be used where regular visits are being made to harbours to refill the tanks. And harbours tend to have their own shower facilities. So quite a bit of the potential advantage is lost. The other big advantage of BenJenBav interiors is the aft cabin(s), which allow more privacy and space. This is a clear advantage for use in harbour with guests aboard. At sea it is rather a disadvantage (see 5. below).

6. Interior (use at sea) The traditional interior (the Contessa very much has the time-honoured layout) can be much more practical while at sea and safer, not having the risk of being thrown so far etc. The layout with narrown hull and cooker and nav table to port and starboard by the companionway steps, plus narrow quarter berth by the nav table is superb: you can pretty much make tea and navigate while steering at the same time with my foot, or steer with my knees while trimming the genoa sheets. The quarterberth is much more practical than an aft cabin (which can only be used by people with iron stomachs in a seaway, and it is possible to navigate, monitor the VHF, GPS, charts etc. without getting out of the berth.

7. handling in harbour: BenJenBavs are supposed to be easier to control in marina berths because they steer well going backwards. There is some truth in this, but only SOME: berthing something like a Contessa undoubtedly requires a more specific set of skills, but once the various techniques have been mastered (prop wash, using the wind to weathercock the boat, etc.), manoeuvring the boat precisely becomes a delight. The low area above the water and large area below means that they are caught and pushed sideways by the wind much less than BenJenBavs, which can be nighmarish in a marina with a strong cross-wind in particular. Ultimately, I would not say that either design comes out on top in this respect, they jsut each require a different skill-set.

8. Build strength: can't comment in detail on this because it varies so much from boat to boat. The perception is however that boats built along more traditional linnes tend to be more heavily laid up and able to take the bumps and scrunches of everyday life with less damage.

9. Price: this is where BenJenBavs are incontrovertibly ahead of the game.

10. Aesthetics: each has to work this one out for him/herself! No prizes for guessing my view /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif I would add however that, on the feeling of sailing, I found the low down position of the Contessa's cockpit a delight. I had grown so used to sailing BenJenBav-style boats that I had forgotten about the pleasure of the sound of water trickling past my left ear.

11. Comfort in a seaway: WeeJimi reckons the Contessa is more comfortable in this respect. I can't confirm or deny it. The Contessa is undoubtedly wet upwind, but a sprayhood pretty much sorts that out, and personally I find the odd bit of spray over the bows all part of the pleasure of the sailing experience.

12. On a personal note, weighing up the above, I obviously came down in favour of the Contessa. My overall logic was:

(with regards to showers and aft cabins) I was buying the boat for myself not guests - if they were looking for accommodation that reminded them of a flat then they weren't the sort of people I would enjoy sailing with.

(with regards to price) price was a very persuasive factor against the Contessa. However, the question for me was not "how much boat could I get for my money" measured in volume, but rather "which boat would be most suited to what I want to do, allow me to sail as much and as far as possible as safely as possible, and give me the most pleasure". After all, if I were after big volume accommodation I would have bought a flat with the money rather than a boat.
 
Re: For me the most interesting thing about this thread

Of course your 41' Legende would sail much faster upwind than a Contessa in pretty much any conditions, she is after all nearly 10' longer! I wouldn't dispute it. I also mentioned in my first post of finding a Jenneau in the 40' region behaved fine when i sailed one in a strong wind.

As to overtaking a Contessa upwind in the Elizabethan 30', I take your word for it, much would depend on how the two boats were being sailed etc. I would have thought generally that speed-wise, the Contessa ought to have been a little faster, but maybe you were sailing more efficiently. Ditto for your Westerly 33. There are many occasions when I have overtaken designs that I wouldn't expect to simply because (I presume) the other guy wasn't concentrating.

When lots of other yachts are out sailing, nearly everyone looks around for other yachts going the same way to compare performance. When going upwind in windy conditions, I would only look to BenJenBavs over about 36' to be able to keep up and be any kind of fun to race against. And the stronger the wind, the longer the BenJenBav that I have to find to race against. I can't claim ever to have sailed faster than a 41'-er (on the Contessa). But I don't think that I've ever found a BenJenBav around the 32' - 34' mark that while beating in strong conditions was not left struggling far behind.
 
Re: For me the most interesting thing about this thread

The Liz 30 was often called the poor man's Contessa and both were built in Lymington, the Liz was designed for the Half Ton Worlds by David Thomas of Sigma fame amongst others. LOA was actually only 29'6" but in LWL terms was the same size as the Contessa and almost identical below decks. Actually we won the Club Regatta in ours over 2 days of F7 winds, and yes there were Contessas out there too. The time our W33 passed the Co32 was in St Albans Race, upwind, strong wind against strong tide and, as anyone who knows it will confirm, very big seas. The reason the W33 went by a C032 was that it had the sailpower and the ability to carry it to go though the seas whereas the Contessa 32, in those seas, was being stopped. The Co32 BTW wasn't a casual cruiser in the vicinity to compare with but was a fully crewed raceboat and racing with PYRA at the time!

Don't get me wrong, I think the Co32 is a lovely boat. But then ALL boats are lovely, some more so than others and some are even AWBs.
 
Re: For me the most interesting thing about this thread

I don't doubt any of it, but I don't think that it contradicts anything I have said in my postings.
 
Why don't you consider a secondhand SUNFIZZ.Very strongly built and at least one went around the world.
An uncle of mine owns one of the first ones(if not actually the first one) since 1980 and it never had any kind of structural failure despite having been sailed in really rough conditions.
It is very roomy and well laid out and the hull shape is moderate with a deep fin.It goes to windward with the best and is very controllable off the wind.One of the later models shouldn't need much work and cost considerably less than a new one.It also looks a lot better than the new stuff ,IMHO.
 
I've only just managed to pick up on this thread again. Thank you to all who replied.

One thing i would say - regardless of what we end up buying, there's going to be plenty of that "intangible pride of ownership" feeling. Partly, because i even get a sense of pride from buying a bag of crisps, but mostly because every penny of the boat/trip etc has been earned by my own fair, honest hand.

Cheers.
 
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